Questions/Advice

[Guest013109]

As a few people have already met me via my introduction, I decided to continue the topic begun (in my introduction) here as it is probably more appropiate here.

Just to catch ppl up to speed -

I'm a married male with a beautiful, loving wife. We are both quite happy and have dabbled in BDSM-related activities off/on for the past 6 years.

About two years ago, I left the o/l BDSM scene to explore my emergence of faith with Christianity. Well, one thing lead to another and I've returned to this forum after quite an absence. I'm interested to utilize this forum for information (not to pick up new submissives-sowwie) about intergrating more BDSM-related activities in our bedroom.

This brings me to a crossroad. I've been involved in the BDSM world since the age of 17 (I'm nearing 30 now). I've had just about every kind of o/l and r/t experience possible related to BDSM (mainly bad - some good). During these years, I kind of became obssessed with the lifestyle and the arousal behind it. Well, now this has given me a problem.

As I begin my walk with thy Lord and grow more mature spiritually - I'm struggling between my interests in BDSM and my Christian faith. I have no problem intergrating BDSM in our bedroom here/there - but then my mind gets stirred up and curious.

I get yearnings to view many BDSM photos online, read 101 different type of BDSM stories and speak to old BDSM friends online. These three things have become a bad influence on my walk with God. So, my question (yes I did have one) is - how to I strictly use BDSM tactics in the bedroom and not get tied into (sorry for the pun) the rest of the lifestyle? I guess mine is more of a 'lost cause' - but was just looking for some feedback.

FYI - I do have over 10 years experience, so if anybody has questions for me or if i can help let me know.

[_ID_]

For your desire to seperate the inherint preverse nature of BDSM and at the same time keep in line with your relegious beliefs. I believe you will need to walk a very thin line. Since you have lots of experience, you have lots of knowledge and ability to bring to the "battle" if you will. If I were in your shoes (and I was very much so, and decided to not pursue my religious beliefs) I would read historical non-fiction accounts and self help novles. Also, honing your leather making skills would be a rather clean road to maintain. My biggest piece of advise I can give you though is to refrain from erotica/pornography portions of BDSM. They are based simply in fantasy, and have little value (except to foster ideas) to your BDSM side of your life.

Good luck in your endevors, the road you travel will be difficult. You might be able to find some helpful answers by typing "bible BDSM" in google. I truely do wish you the best.

[MrDom]

well MoF There is a few christain BDSM groups out there on the web that a lot. They can help you with the question you have. But here we can answer other things to. hope we can all help.

MrDom

[Silke]

ManOfFaith,

I might be a bit lost in this question because I'm new to the lifestyle still and am not much of a Christian follower in the sense of organised religion, but I'm a curious person and I admit that I don't really see too much of a conflict between BDSM (the way I see and practice it) and following a spiritual path.

What are the points that you're struggeling with? Why do you think entering back into the lifestyle (outside of your own marriage) would do harm to your religious practice?

See, I've found this to be a very caring community that has more of a good influence on me than a bad one, that's why I'm asking. I can understand that some of the more edgy ideas, fantasies & practices might run against Christian beliefs, but it's you that makes the decision which paths to persue and which people to surround yourself with, isn't it?

Curious to learn more,
Silke

[Guest013109]

Silke - many aspects of the BDSM community put a negative value on marriage, sexuality, purity and things of that nature. This community basically stretches every boundary possible. That is why keeping true to my faith as I practice BDSM within my own marriage is a difficult road. Biggest thing for me is trying to remain focussed and steering clear of all the sub-cultures of BDSM (i.e., pictures, stories, chat rooms, etc.)

This is where my past experiences and many years of influence make it hard for me to remain focussed. I've experienced first-hand all aspects of this community before I commited my life to Christ Jesus. I know how much my flesh enjoys the pictures/images of BDSM and the many stories generated from some talented imaginations. I need to practice self-reservation and steer clear of these things if I plan on not stumbliing.

I guess I opened a huge can of worms because there is so much I want to say but unsure how to do so. Hope I shed a little light on the topic.

-- I will definitely check out the christian BDSM groups online when I get a chance. May prove to be an effective resource.

[Silke]

ManOfFaith - thank you so much for sharing this.

I guess it's hard for me to understand what you're going through because I have a completely different picture of spirituality and God. My take is that God would love for us to experience passion in every way possible as long as we don't hurt each other along the way...not that kind of hurt...oh well, it's late and I'm sure you get the idea anyway.

So, as long as you and your wife agree to similar standards...what's wrong with being kinky? I also wouldn't regard reading or looking at appetizers as something to be bad. If that's all you worry about...looking at pictures, reading stories, getting ideas...that doesn't go against anything within the Christian faith, does it? Or are you afraid it'd wake up more desires?

Still trying to understand where the conflict is, not trying to impose any of my views on you.

May I ask whether you're in some special, more strict religious group? See, I'm based in Germany and neither the protestant nor the catholic church here would probably raise more than an eyebrow to reading kinky stories and the like...

Ok, I better get some sleep now - sun's up already and I'm rambling. Good night,

Silke

[Alex Bragi]

Silke - many aspects of the BDSM community put a negative value on marriage, sexuality, purity and things of that nature. ...

While those from within the vanilla community put a more positive value on marriage, and are mostly pure and monogamous? Not, where I live, here on planet Earth, they're not.

I'm feel sure that the incidents of "negative values" are much the same in BDSM as vanilla communities. As each person (couple) finds his or her own level of what is acceptable sexual behaviour regardless of what activities they happen to enjoy in the bedroom (or dungeon ).

Quite frankly, I admire you for the way you have come in here and talked so openly about your religious values. Not too many men would feel as comfortable or confident about reconciling their Christian beliefs with their enjoyment of bdsm.

I wish you and you wife all the best in your journey of faith and marriage. I'm sure you, and your marriage, be stronger for both .

[maddie]

ManofFaith, I think that you can learn to exercise some moderations with this and that, eventually, you'll find you're comfortable with what you're doing and balancing that with your faith.

Part of the issue, I think, is that a lot of your evangelical/conservative types (Southern Baptists, for example) as well as devout Catholic types frown on any sort of sex that's not for procreation purposes. I get the feeling from some people that sex isn't supposed to be enjoyable. I've also been told point blank by some people that, because we're not having kids, we shouldn't be married. Some people have a way of attaching a whole lot of guilt to sex, and, frankly, I think that's a shame. I honestly do think God intended us to enjoy sex. And, just as He wired us all differently in terms of what foods we like, what our gifts and talents are, and what we look like, I think maybe we're all wired a little differently in terms of how we like to enjoy sex.

Look, it's not like you're talking about making your wife your 24/7 sub, right? You're not going to forget your vows, you've established limits for yourself in terms of not looking at certain things. I've done the same thing. I had a long talk with my husband about what is acceptable behavior from me on this forum. I may be tempted on occasion, but faith isn't true faith unless you work at it, right? It's not something you just pick up along the way and carry with you. You have to work at it.

[Warbaby1943]

to enjoy sex.
I may be tempted on occasion, but faith isn't true faith unless you work at it, right? It's not something you just pick up along the way and carry with you. You have to work at it.

Granted you have to always work at keeping your faith and religious beliefs in tact. However, I have seen many instances where one would become "born again" Christians and almost instantly forsake their entire life's practices for the sake of being "born again," even to the point of giving up their lifelong friends.

This seems to be the norm for about a year or 2 after becoming a "born again" Christian but then they all seem to temper reality with their religion and once again become a little more tolerant of their everyday lifestyle. I'm not saying they forsake their religion, I'm just saying they start to see their religion as part of their life rather than the one and only controlling aspect of their life. Just my opinion.

[_ID_]

I grew up in one of those "extremely restrictive faiths" that was mentioned. They do feel that sex is for procreation, not dirty really, but very much so had a particular purpose. If you do a quick search in google you can find those places in the bible that mention sex, and marriage, and what it actually says. You don't need to pick up a bible anymore. People have done all the research for us.

As far as what ManOfFaith believes, it's not my place to pass judgement on how he partakes in BDSM or how he incorporates it into his marriage with his wife. What I see this soul seeking is a way to partake in those things he and his wife find enjoyable, and yet remain true to what they have come to believe in.

Values, beliefs and faith are all a very tricky thing to nail down. If you were to look at each of them, ask what was was the most dificult to change and most cherrished you get values. Values are derived from beliefs, and beliefs can be changed more easily than values. If your beliefs are changed in time values (if your beliefs remain constant) will follow the beliefs. That is assuming you maintain faith in your beliefs.

Faith on the other hand is simply putting your ideas, and your hopes in something you can't see nor can you touch it. Faith is just that, faith.

This all of course is just my opinion, and just like faith or beliefs varies from person to person.

V/R
ID

[Masters_lilone]

you can still follow your faith and incorperate bdsm into the bedroom me and Master are both christian and still live our lives as Master and slavegirl living the BDSM lifestyle does not make you any less of a christian.. just remain faithfull to your wife and if you don't want to scene with others don't

[Guest013109]

I'm quite gracious/thankful to the type of conversation my topic has sparked. Also, I'm even more impressed that all responses thusfar has been mature and on an intelligent level. That is usually a pretty remarkable thing to find on forums these days.

I do not think wifey and I have a problem of practices some BDSM acts (i.e., bondage, stimulation, control-driven techniques, etc.) currently. Like most of said, since we are married and we have a mono. partnership - the bedroom is an open arena for lots of fun. As a christian, I do not (nor does my church think so) that sexual acts are bad between married ppl. As long as they are healthly and not abusive, I see no wrong there.

I guess my real 'question/problem' is how to deal with my submissive/BDSM tendacies/urges outside of my marriage. The teasers (pictures, stories, techniques) in the BDSM world is something I seem like is hindering my faith. IMO,the teasers provoke other 'intimate' actions while getting caught up in them. Also, they provoke many lustful thoughts that kind of take my mind of my concentrated as a devoted christian.

All in all though, I feel I've done pretty well conquering my urges outside the bedroom. I've decided to return to this forum for support, to learn some ideas for play with wifey and to speak to other faith-driven BDSMers. Maybe, I might even be able to turn a few eyes up towards the Lord that have spent too much time looking down at Hell.

Great discussion thusfar though...

[Putnamcocpl]

Having read the postings I felt a need to comment.

MoF, May I ask a simple question... Does your previous practices of BDSM, involve the Humiliation aspects, or were they one component of it? Degrading your willing supplicant, in a scene? Does that carry over into your private lives outside the bedroom?

Honestly, while reading this thread, I heard Robin Williams voice in my head, from Bicentennial Man, something about God's sense of humor putting pleasure centers so close to Waste removal...

[mina]

you can still follow your faith and incorperate bdsm into the bedroom me and Master are both christian and still live our lives as Master and slavegirl living the BDSM lifestyle does not make you any less of a christian.. just remain faithfull to your wife and if you don't want to scene with others don't

That's great to hear that both of you are Christian and can make this work. Unfortunately for me, Master does not share my faith and has a hard time believing. I would give anything to convert him, but that's not exactly the easiest thing to do. I don't think it's hopeless though, I know he's struggling to find God, and sometimes he'll even suggest we go to church. But then he just returns to his previous views...

I guess my real 'question/problem' is how to deal with my submissive/BDSM tendacies/urges outside of my marriage. The teasers (pictures, stories, techniques) in the BDSM world is something I seem like is hindering my faith. IMO,the teasers provoke other 'intimate' actions while getting caught up in them. Also, they provoke many lustful thoughts that kind of take my mind of my concentrated as a devoted christian.

Interesting point, but is it really all that bad to simply look at pictures or stories? I don't see why God would have a problem with "lustful thoughts", especially if you apply what you're seeing/reading about to you and your wife (as opposed to thinking of someone else while viewing).

[Tojo]

Well this is a subject close to my heart at the moment-

All I can say is it'd have to be a pretty crappy God who wouldn't let us have lustful thoughts or even think nice things about someone.

Tojo

[_ID_]

In the chat room today there was a very good conversation about this subject. Both sides were taken, and one person thought that so long as both partners concent, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Now I am not a religious person, but I do know what I was taught. That was to find your faith, live it, and praise God's name.

All I can say is it'd have to be a pretty crappy God who wouldn't let us have lustful thoughts or even think nice things about someone.

Look up Matthew Chapter 5 verse 28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


I don't want you to think I am giving an interpratation, so please read the verse.

Now, I don't want you to assume I am casting the stone here. I just wanted to tell you what the bible actually says.

Personnaly I don't care what you do or with who, it's your life, and so long as your not hurting anyone, I don't care if your having sex with clowns making ballon animals, hoping your wife/husband doesn't find out.

V/R
ID

[Ruby]

I need to practice self-reservation and steer clear of these things if I plan on not stumbliing.

ManofFaith,

Do you need to steer yourself away from those things because they interfere with your relationship with the Lord?
Do you find them to be sinful desires?

1 Peter 2

11 Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

Or are they desires that can be filled without stumbling on your walk with the Lord?

If you find them to be sinful, remove the temptation whenever possible, much like a dieter removes the jar of candy from sight.
* Prevent images from showing on sites like this
* Avoid the library or picture threads
* Find a buddy or two to help you when you are tempted to "cheat"

If you don't find them sinful, but are concerned with them becoming an addiction, then follow the same or similar strategies.

To your success,

Ruby

What else does Peter have to say about faith and living?

1 Peter 2

Submission to Rulers and Masters

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1 Peter 3

Wives and Husbands

1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

[Ruby]

ID, great point about not stone throwing.

I'm quite sure that none of us are qualified to do so, nor does it appear to be what you are doing.

This is one of my favorite Bible verses:

Matthew 7

1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

[Scorpio'sWill2Power]

As with all things in life there are never any easy answers.

In this instance with the question that ManOfFaith poses
its more an issue with what I've spoken about as to
a moral compass within us.

In each of us (many of us anyways but that's another topic)
there is what is known as a moral compass, the sense of
what's right or wrong. Much of that is based upon how
we learned life's lessons, what we might have been taught
and come to believe, how we evolved as human beings.

In many instances if we feel doubt, something gives us reason
to pause than that moral compass is telling us that perhaps
we need to rethink things. Look at what troubles us with
a closer eye and ask ourselves is this really the path we
want to continue on.

ManOfFaith my suggestion for what it's worth would be to
look to your heart and do what you feel gives you peace
of mind. As difficult as it might be, if outside sources give
you reason to doubt you may be living outside what God
might ask of us than walk away from those sources and
never look back.

In the grand scheme of things our lives in this physical
world is often one of struggle within each of us and
sometimes all too fleeting. All any of us can do is to try
and live our lives as we have been taught and come to
believe is the correct way for each of us.

Enjoy what you share in private with your wife and love
each other. Keep peace within your heart and mind and
live life with the faith you have in God and that which
you share with your wife.

As we all know, nothing in our lives comes easy. It's
all about the road we travel and how we make the journey
that gives us the sum of who we are when our time on
this physical world comes to its conclusion.

ManOfFaith, I sense in you from the words you write;
a good man. Always strive to be that good man and
and follow your faith and your heart.

[Guest013109]

Ruby, ID and Scorpio - Man, thanks for the 'on point' advice. Definitely gives me some 'food for thought'. Ruby hit the 'nail on the head' with many of her points. Thanks doll. I will heed to some of your advice and reap happiness due to such acts.

Thanks again.

[cariad]

ManOfFaith - thank you so much for sharing this.

...

May I ask whether you're in some special, more strict religious group? See, I'm based in Germany and neither the protestant nor the catholic church here would probably raise more than an eyebrow to reading kinky stories and the like...

...

Silke

Surely what is important is whether God raises His eyebrow rather than whether the church does? Not necessarily always the same thing! If it was, all churches would be in agreement.

cariad

[cariad]

Silke - many aspects of the BDSM community put a negative value on marriage, sexuality, purity and things of that nature. This community basically stretches every boundary possible. That is why keeping true to my faith as I practice BDSM within my own marriage is a difficult road. Biggest thing for me is trying to remain focussed and steering clear of all the sub-cultures of BDSM (i.e., pictures, stories, chat rooms, etc.)

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. Chosen elements of B and D and S and M can be taken and incorporated into a Christian marriage. There are clearly some practices within the BDSM community which are contrary to God's laws and dabbling would be unwise. But as the point has already been made - this also applies to sexual practices within the vanilla community.

-- I will definitely check out the christian BDSM groups online when I get a chance. May prove to be an effective resource.

A word of warning here - I once ventured into those online groups, thinking they would be a safe space. The title suggests that it is safe to let your guard down - this is not the case. I did not meet anyone there who was deliberately perversive, but wonderful people who had fallen for different temptations and one needs to be just as vigilant. I so admire the stance you are taking!

cariad

[cariad]

ManOfFaith - thank you so much for sharing this.

I guess it's hard for me to understand what you're going through because I have a completely different picture of spirituality and God. My take is that God would love for us to experience passion in every way possible as long as we don't hurt each other along the way...not that kind of hurt...oh well, it's late and I'm sure you get the idea anyway.

My understanding is also that God would like us to experience everything good! It is just that we can be like we were as children when we wanted to do something which seemed fun, but our parents knew that ultimately we could get hurt. We ignore His guidance at our own risk - and I speak as someone who has some of the scars from doing so.

cariad

[cariad]

Granted you have to always work at keeping your faith and religious beliefs in tact. However, I have seen many instances where one would become "born again" Christians and almost instantly forsake their entire life's practices for the sake of being "born again," even to the point of giving up their lifelong friends.

This seems to be the norm for about a year or 2 after becoming a "born again" Christian but then they all seem to temper reality with their religion and once again become a little more tolerant of their everyday lifestyle. I'm not saying they forsake their religion, I'm just saying they start to see their religion as part of their life rather than the one and only controlling aspect of their life. Just my opinion.

This issue is addressed in the scriptures: Revelation 2:3 - 5a

You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first.

So whilst I agree with your point - and yes we do all find ways of working out our faith in everyday live - we should not accept loosing our first zeal as acceptable.

cariad

[cariad]

ManofFaith,

Do you need to steer yourself away from those things because they interfere with your relationship with the Lord?
Do you find them to be sinful desires? ..........

A big hear hear to your entire post!!!!

...and ManofFaith - if that means that you feel it is best for you not to return here, I will miss your companionship and thoughts and salute your strength.

cariad

[cariad]

In the chat room today there was a very good conversation about this subject.

As someone who was fortunate enough to be involved in that conversation, I quite agree it was refreshing. I have since spent some hours going back to the scriptures checking out what God says there, rather than just relying on received teaching. Wonderful to be challenged!

I yearn for more such conversations in the chatroom about many subjects.

cariad

[Tojo]

Just a thought off the top of my head- wouldn't it be nice if we could ring God direct, instead of relying on someone's interpretation of His word?

I believe if there is a God, he (or she) would want us to be good to each other, good to ourselves & try & forgive our own imperfections, & those of others.

None of us are perfect- my own belief is that loving yourself & as many others as you can (no jokes please...) is the greatest thing we can ever achieve.

Tojo

[cariad]

...

ManOfFaith my suggestion for what it's worth would be to
look to your heart and do what you feel gives you peace
of mind. As difficult as it might be, if outside sources give
you reason to doubt you may be living outside what God
might ask of us than walk away from those sources and
never look back.

...

ManofFaith - I could not agree more with this - but would add pray, listen to that small still voice, and even if you do not like what you hear - obey to the best of your ability, and then turn to the Holy Spirit for supernatural help.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

cariad

(and I think you know enough of me to know that I will NEVER judge)

[cariad]

Just a thought off the top of my head- wouldn't it be nice if we could ring God direct, instead of relying on someone's interpretation of His word?

To give a serious answer to that - through prayer we can gradually come into that sort of relationship with God. Which is really rather good of Him, since when He came to earth to talk one to one with us we ended up killing Him in the cruelest way the Roman's could come up with!

He has spoken 'audibly' to me three times, as in I was amazed on the one time someone else was with me at the time they did not also here Him. One of those times I was driving and approaching a blind right hand corner. He told me to turn hard left as I went round, which meant I ended up on someones grass. A second later I saw the small boy on a bike, I would have run over if I had not done so.

I believe if there is a God, he (or she) would want us to be good to each other, good to ourselves & try & forgive our own imperfections, & those of others.

Luke 11:4
Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

He would seem to agree with you Tojo!

cariad

[maddie]

I believe if there is a God, he (or she) would want us to be good to each other, good to ourselves & try & forgive our own imperfections, & those of others.

Matthew 19: 16-19: Someone came to Jesus with this question: "Teacher, what good things must I do to have eternal life?"

*** "Why ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "Only God is good. But to answer your question, you can receive eternal life if you keep the commandments."

*** "Which ones?" the man asked.

***And Jesus replied: " `Do not murder. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Mark 12: 28-31: One of the teachers of religious law was standing there listening to the discussion. He realized that Jesus had answered well, so he asked, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

*** Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.' The second is equally important: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."

Hard to put it much more plainly, yet far too many people who say they are Christian forget it. (Not looking at anybody here with that. Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell might do well to remember it, though.)

It seems to me that a significant problem facing people trying to live a good, Christian life is that there's far too many different ideas of what that life is supposed to be like. And religion has become too intricately woven with power and wealth, has grown over the centuries to focus not on the heart of Jesus' message, but on the details. Arguments over things that really don't matter abound, while people lose sight of the simplicity of Jesus' message.