Do you believe?

[cariad]

My gripe is the claims religious people make on the origins of our world, and the the bits about heaven, hell and angels. The supernatural stuff. When people are not able or willing to back up their claims there's no debate and it quickly turns farcical.

It is supernatural stuff, you are quite right. And to accept any degree of 'proof' you have to be prepared to the supernatural. It is a circular argument I know - but not farcical, unless you choose to view it that way. I suspect that if you were given such a proof your response would be either, that is nonsense since you are quoting the supernatural to prove the supernatural or that you agree you don't understand the proof, but since the supernatural does not exist, in your mind, it is merely a case of science not having developed enough to give a natural explanation.

We have so far never seen a shred of evidence to suport any form of supernatural force. Let's for the sake of argument assume there aren't any, until there apears some.

In other words, I am right unless you can prove that I am wrong... Is that not what you accuse 'religious' people of saying?

What all religious people need to understand is that by treating scientific evidence as a cute option in life they are giving nurishment to all the fundamentalists in the world.

I strongly object to the statement that religious people treat scientific evidence as a cute option. It is incorrect and potentially offensive.

Playing head-games of logic just because you desperately want a god to exist is just deluded. There used to be good reason to believe a god existed. But science has progressed. Today we have other more plausible theories that doesn't necesarily involve anything supernatural.

Smiles - I loved Tom! Follow your own logic.

1. There used to be good reason to believe a god existed. (Will not dispute this)
2. Science has progressed (Agreed - and it has not answered any of the fundamental questions which gave rise to why people believed a god existed.)
3. Today we have more plausible theories... (These are only theories, by definition there is no proof of them...dare I suggest you are playing head games here?)

Einstein was religious. He believed god was that first spark of life that set off the whole evolution and that first little bump that started the big bang. Today, that is a totally plausible explanation. We don't know any better theory.

I can go along with that.

He did however not believe in heaven, interventions by god or any other supernatural force. So it isn't actually religion as such I'm against, only people who today believe in a supernatural entity interveaning on earth...and on top of that have the bad taste to teach it as fact to their children.

I may be wrong here, in which case please forgive me, but I suspect you would guide your children to not believe in the supernatural since there is no scientific proof of it. As someone who does believe in the supernatural, although I would call it spiritual, I find such guidance equally misguided. Children are intelligent beings, they should be presented with the facts - i.e. this is my experience, this is why I believe it, other people say etc - and then left to discover the world for themselves.

Just in case you have not already guessed I do believe in spiritual entities which are alive and very active on earth. I am sorry you are against me because of that belief.

There is absolutly no conflict between being a faithful Catholic and being an atheist. You can follow all the moral comandments. Just don't make any claims on the existance of heaven. It might exist, maybe not. Let's just leave it at that and let some scientist mangage to prove it one day. Just don't count on it, like so many suicide bombers are doing. The church can have a major role as suport and help in our world even if we renounce this rediculous claim in the supernatural benevolent force. It doesn't take much to realise that it's the words in the Bible and Koran that help people, and have helped for all these years. Not some mythical god. The words can keep helping us in a secular world.

Why should everything left be scientists?

I agree the words in the Bible and the Koran and other spiritual books can help society - but that rather misses the point about faith. Christianity, which is my faith, and the one I know most about it, is primarily about having a relationship with God, not about following a code of conduct.

edit: Denying that science is the best model for explaning how the world works is just plain stupid. Science is today in direct conflict with all of the major organised religions, (except Budhism). Science isn't optional.

Science is not optional I agree. But you imply that it is the only discipline which should be used to explain the world works. Why?

cariad