Do people 'deserve' universal health care?

[Thorne]

The prices of medicines are maintained at artificially high levels for far too long, supposedly to recoup R&D costs. Frankly, I don't believe it. I think competition under capitalism exists only for as long as it takes for a tacit cartel to come about, where the chemical companies do not sell their drugs below a certain price level to cushion their profits, although they might compete with each other above those prices.

I worked for a pharmaceutical company at one time, a small one, and I can assure you that the R&D costs are astronomical! Even minor medicines went through many months, if not years, of development and testing, and not all of them were successful. So when you are paying those high prices for the drugs that let you lead a comfortable life, you are also having to pay for the research for other drugs which never made it to market.

Add to that the high cost of manufacture for those drugs, too. From the top of my head, every raw material which was purchased for production had to be rigorously tested to meet FDA standards. Every step in the production process had to be tested, repeatedly. Repeated sterilizing of equipment, relatively high cost of training production personel, as compared to average factory workers, added to the cost. Testing continued through the packaging process and even sampling from the warehouse.

That's not to say that the drug companies don't pad their prices, but after seeing the process in action, I can't fault them too much.

[mkemse]

I worked for a pharmaceutical company at one time, a small one, and I can assure you that the R&D costs are astronomical! Even minor medicines went through many months, if not years, of development and testing, and not all of them were successful. So when you are paying those high prices for the drugs that let you lead a comfortable life, you are also having to pay for the research for other drugs which never made it to market.

Add to that the high cost of manufacture for those drugs, too. From the top of my head, every raw material which was purchased for production had to be rigorously tested to meet FDA standards. Every step in the production process had to be tested, repeatedly. Repeated sterilizing of equipment, relatively high cost of training production personel, as compared to average factory workers, added to the cost. Testing continued through the packaging process and even sampling from the warehouse.

That's not to say that the drug companies don't pad their prices, but after seeing the process in action, I can't fault them too much.

My contnetion is not so much the cost of Medication, i know R&D is costly and even ore so when the FDA does not approve the drug for sales, butthe R&D cost doesn
t explain the insane cost of Rooms at a Hositpal or a Docotors office visit, if they give youmeds it is sample that they do not pay for meidcation costs are hgiht, but so are Doctors fees, Hosptial fees ect

[Thorne]

My contnetion is not so much the cost of Medication, i know R&D is costly and even ore so when the FDA does not approve the drug for sales, butthe R&D cost doesn
t explain the insane cost of Rooms at a Hositpal or a Docotors office visit, if they give youmeds it is sample that they do not pay for meidcation costs are hgiht, but so are Doctors fees, Hosptial fees ect

No, the "insane" cost of rooms at the hospital are because of the losses the hospital has to take by treating anybody who walks through their doors, whether they can pay or not. It's also caused by the high cost of all of the equipment they have to maintain in order to run batteries of needless tests to cover their asses against those people who will sue them for millions if they catch a cold in the hospital.

The same with Doctor's fees. Doctor's pay exhorbitant insurance premiums to cover their practices because our legal system allows anyone to sue for inane reasons. Did you twist your ankle? Better run a full set of X-rays, and maybe an MRI, just to make sure you didn't fracture something, even though there's no evidence that you did, and you're not really in any pain, but let's give you pain meds, which you can't pay for because the costs are too high, so we'll sue the Doctor for overmedicating.

I get tired of hearing these same old arguments! Those who have, charge too much. Those who don't have, want everything for free. It's a simple case of economics! If the price is too high, DON'T BUY IT!

Of course, everyone expects to live to be 100 and have perfect health, and if they don't, well SOMEBODY better figure out a way to fix it! Just don't expect them to pay for it.

[mkemse]

No, the "insane" cost of rooms at the hospital are because of the losses the hospital has to take by treating anybody who walks through their doors, whether they can pay or not. It's also caused by the high cost of all of the equipment they have to maintain in order to run batteries of needless tests to cover their asses against those people who will sue them for millions if they catch a cold in the hospital.

The same with Doctor's fees. Doctor's pay exhorbitant insurance premiums to cover their practices because our legal system allows anyone to sue for inane reasons. Did you twist your ankle? Better run a full set of X-rays, and maybe an MRI, just to make sure you didn't fracture something, even though there's no evidence that you did, and you're not really in any pain, but let's give you pain meds, which you can't pay for because the costs are too high, so we'll sue the Doctor for overmedicating.

I get tired of hearing these same old arguments! Those who have, charge too much. Those who don't have, want everything for free. It's a simple case of economics! If the price is too high, DON'T BUY IT!

Of course, everyone expects to live to be 100 and have perfect health, and if they don't, well SOMEBODY better figure out a way to fix it! Just don't expect them to pay for it.

Thanks

[Belgarold]

I worked for a pharmaceutical company at one time, a small one, and I can assure you that the R&D costs are astronomical! Even minor medicines went through many months, if not years, of development and testing, and not all of them were successful. So when you are paying those high prices for the drugs that let you lead a comfortable life, you are also having to pay for the research for other drugs which never made it to market.

Add to that the high cost of manufacture for those drugs, too. From the top of my head, every raw material which was purchased for production had to be rigorously tested to meet FDA standards. Every step in the production process had to be tested, repeatedly. Repeated sterilizing of equipment, relatively high cost of training production personel, as compared to average factory workers, added to the cost. Testing continued through the packaging process and even sampling from the warehouse.

That's not to say that the drug companies don't pad their prices, but after seeing the process in action, I can't fault them too much.

And still somehow they are able to make astronomical profits and sell their product in other countries at a great loss.

I am not against corporations or companies. I owned my own business at one time and my brother still does. But large corporations become behemoths eating up people and profits. And why isn't there a hue and cry from the right about us subsidizing low-cost drugs in other countries?

I am just saying making profits as the drug companies and health insurance companies do, on the backs of everyday Americans is wrong and hurts the economy.

[Thorne]

And why isn't there a hue and cry from the right about us subsidizing low-cost drugs in other countries?

Because there is such a hue and cry from the LEFT because we aren't doing enough to help the poor people overseas.

You want to send food to starving kids in Nigeria? The cost of food goes up in the US. You're going to send drugs to Kazakstan? The cost of drugs goes up in the US.

But the real problem is that the drug companies make such a large profit, isn't it? They're dealing with sick people here! They're responsible for people's lives, aren't they? They should be giving the stuff away! Why the hell should they make any money doing it?

Just tell me this, people. If the drug companies decide to just give up and shut down, who's going to step in and take their place? Especially if they're no longer allowed to make a profit? You want your drugs manufactured under Federal management? By the lowest bidder? I don't think so!

[MMI]

And still somehow they are able to make astronomical profits and sell their product in other countries at a great loss.

Do you really believe they sell stuff in other countries at a great loss? I don't.

The stuff they sell in Africa, you'd regard as old-fashioned medicine, long since superceded by something else (or maybe the same stuff in a new package). They made thier pile in the West, but this provides a steady trail income.

And the stuff they give away in Africa is out-of-date medicine that would otherwise be destroyed.

[Thorne]

Do you really believe they sell stuff in other countries at a great loss? I don't.

The stuff they sell in Africa, you'd regard as old-fashioned medicine, long since superceded by something else (or maybe the same stuff in a new package). They made thier pile in the West, but this provides a steady trail income.

And the stuff they give away in Africa is out-of-date medicine that would otherwise be destroyed.

That may be so, I don't know. But even so, what of it? It's a business. That's what businesses do. If you have a product which people need, or want, you make money. Tons of money, if your smart.

[Belgarold]

Do you really believe they sell stuff in other countries at a great loss? I don't.

The stuff they sell in Africa, you'd regard as old-fashioned medicine, long since superceded by something else (or maybe the same stuff in a new package). They made thier pile in the West, but this provides a steady trail income.

And the stuff they give away in Africa is out-of-date medicine that would otherwise be destroyed.

Yes, this is true. I wasn't even considering these 'giveaways' but the stuff they sell in Canada, for instance, is sold at a great deal less because the country will not allow them to sell at too high of a profit.

Thorne, I am not against them making a profit, but there should be a limit on this, yes. And as a follow-on, what the Health Insurance industry does is criminal. You pay your premium and when something happens and you need the insurance the insurance company does all it can to not do their jobs, pay out. And bean counters let people die every day.

How much is enough profit to make on the misery of every day Americans?

[Thorne]

what the Health Insurance industry does is criminal. You pay your premium and when something happens and you need the insurance the insurance company does all it can to not do their jobs, pay out. And bean counters let people die every day.

The insurance companies are another story, and I have little or nothing good to say about them. But consider, if the Feds take over the management of healthcare, a good portion of those insurance companies won't be needed. And all those bean counters will be looking for jobs. With the Feds. Doing the same thing they're doing now!

[SadisticNature]

The accounting of drugs is incredibly difficult.

If you consider the cost of a drug per unit to be:

Total cost of drug including production and research costs / units sold

Then yes companies sell drugs at a loss.

If you consider the cost of a drug to be:

Production cost of one unit (including labour)

then companies generally sell at a profit everywhere.

However, in many cases, drugs are provided to poor countries as part of the 2.5% of revenue that most organizations spend on charity these days (ala Google). Most companies consider this good branding as it makes it harder to attack them on people dying because they can't afford care.

The US has the worst drug prices even though it doesn't have the highest per capita income because most countries are able to negotiate at a national or state/province-wide level for drug prices. A company is far more willing to sell 2,000,000 units of medication at a smaller price than the small number of units that a particular insurance plan or single hospital would negotiate. It's just not worth the companies time to negotiate over a sale of 10 units.

[SadisticNature]

I think the job description changes a little bit.

After all medicare and medicaid are the two most efficient plans in the country, and there are far fewer cases of them aggressively trying to deny care.

For profit insurance is part of the reason costs are out of control. Taking 23% profits, introducing a huge amount of overhead with high level management salaries and benefits, and saying that there will be savings to the consumer is in general quite laughable. There can be other benefits such as diversity of options and varying levels of quality (pay for premium care etc.), but to say that private industry lowers costs is generally erroneous.