Quote Originally Posted by steelish View Post
The point is - there is no such thing as equality. Every program created to "enforce" equality has failed miserably. There are those reading this thread who will point fingers at me and yell "racist"...there are those who will point fingers and accuse me of having a cold heart. But...think about it. The American government in their divine wisdom created "equal opportunity" within the workplace. There were thousands upon thousands of businesses who were forced to hire unqualified personnel just to meet the "racial" quota. I've sat in boardrooms (at my previous job) where this was discussed. I've overheard management (at my current job) talking about it. I've seen evidence of it. I've heard an African American (a term I still find offensive) telling co-workers he was going to "sue" the company because he didn't get a job he was qualified for, only to have his co-workers point out his lack of qualification. His response; "I don't care. If I have to play the race card, I will". The result...he got the management position over a year ago and is running the office into the ground.

Since when is it "equal" to give someone an "edge" over another person based upon race? Isn't that racism in and of itself? The thought that someone who is not caucasian needs "help" to get a job seems racist to me. It's the same as saying they can't get a job based upon their own merit. I know someone will say, "But without equal opportunity, there are still corporations that will discriminate". The way to change that mentality is not through brute force (forcing them to hire someone they "discriminate" against) but through example. How can discrimination ever disappear if people are behaving so reprehensibly?
Quote Originally Posted by Kendal View Post
Yes steelish - there is more chance of the person without a degree climbing the corporate ladder in american than england but broadly speaking education-profession-salary go hand in hand. The CEOs who climbed the ladder invariably come from sales or a field where education(training) is not so critical as it is for a doctor, lawyer or one of the professional classes.

The question for me still remains - do we believe in equal (or fairer) opportunity and higher minimum standards of living for those at the bottom. For me they are goals to aim for but others seem to have the harsh attitude that people should only look out for themselves and are not under any obligation to help others.

As regards "racist" I sense dangerous waters so will tread carefully. I do not know USA so may well be wrong but I think there is a flaw in what you say. You are talking on the individual level - (ie forcing to hire somebody) but the laws are aimed at the group level. The problem is the game did not start with all players equal (ie segregation etc) so when you suddenly say from now on we play on even playing field it is not equal until you correct the imbalances from before. This is the aim. Whether it has succeeded or not I dont know but I would say the principle on which it is based is sound. If we want a fair horse race we handicap horses with more or less weight. Nobody complaines the race is unfair - far from it - that is seen to make it a more even match. Perhaps not the perfect analagy but to say why should I carry more weight than the other does not negate the principle of fairness and equality. In short - you started unequal so to make it equal now we need to give a boost to the other. If you've ever played poker against a man who started with a lot more money you will know what I am talking about,.


At work there is a Supervisor who insists that Affirmative Action is necessary because how can you expect in one generation to overcome the deficiencies of the past. We have some "spirited" conversations over this. He thinks it should go on for ever. I say people have had the opportunity to prove they can do the job with government support, now let them prove it without it. He is always angry claiming African Americans do are not properly represented in our Department. He refused to take into account our Peace Officer status, and firearms requirements. the exceptionally large numbers of blacks committing crimes, which disqualify them from this type of job are not my fault. Looking at from a law abiding point of view blacks are overrepresented, as they reflect nearly the population, not the law abiding population. I think he is wrong about his desire for Affirmative Action.

I guess I'm much harder... Take the job, do the job, or lose the job. If you cannot pass our academy or do our job because they don't serve collard greens in the snack bar, that is stupid. Yet you see that type of argument all the time.

Amazing, how even with furloughs, our California Department of Motor Vehicles improve service for a short time, when they thought Arnold would lay people off based on performance, rather than seniority. I know that is not possible but I love the thought. Not only should they use performance, but they should go back for years, before it even became an issue, as performance then speaks to character, not seniority.

steelish I do congratulate you on the jobs you have held without a degree. Performance can go a long way in advancement, for performers.

In a job I had once, I made wheelchairs. My peers always told me that I should not work so hard because if I had a bad, or occasionally less productive day management would notice and come down on me. Everyone has bad days, and management never questioned me if I fell short. I felt I should give them the best days work I could everyday. Thats how I was raised, and between my upbringing and Military time, I really cannot think any other way. In the military there were standards and you met them or exceeded them and I still have trouble dealing with the civilian standard of mediocrity. I know now as a Supervisor myself, how much management at that plant I worked at must have appreciated the extra effort I put in. Often at the bottom you think it is not noticed, but, I assure you, if your first line supervisor is worth anything, it is.

Having said that. many jobs have an educational requirement. Education is always an advantage. If I could go back in time and start over, I would graduate high school with a 4.0, have gone to west point, and pursued my military career from the returning side of the salute. Hard work can take you far, but even CEO's in America who started up the corporate ladder without education, generally get some.