Religion or Atheism? An open forum.

[Thorne]

That being said, however, do you think parents should have the "right" to deny their children medical care when the children are ill, just because of their own religious beliefs? Should parents have the "right" to brutally beat their children because the Bible tells them not to spare the rod? Do you not agree that there are certain limits society, and the law, MUST place on parents when dealing with the health and welfare of their children?

Last time I checked we have laws in place allready that cover all that.

Yes, we do. And why do we have those laws? To prevent the abuse of the children. But isn't telling a child that she will go to hell and burn for eternity if she touches herself also abuse? Isn't it abuse to tell a child that God will throw him into a pit of burning brimstone to be tortured by demons abuse? Should there not be laws to protect against that kind of abuse as well?

But where does one draw the line between, "If I have sex outside of marriage I'll be sent to Hell," and "If I break a mirror I'll have seven years bad luck." Each of these statements have their believers. Neither are provable.
You dont have to draw any line save for yourself and leave the lines other wish to draw for themselves.

I would love to, but it's the theists who want to make premarital sex illegal, not me.

Becuase one is a commonly acepted fairytale, where as the other is someone's belief system and as such is deserving of the same mutual respect you claim atheism deserves.

So if children believe it it's a fairy tale, but if adults believe it it's a religion? Sorry, I don't buy it. If you compare them they sound pretty much alike.

in paticular the new testament has Jesus make a little statement about such things that pretty much excludes all the old testament hard core laws that are by all rights no longer applicable even to the most fundamentalist of followers,

Sorry, but that's not true.

Matthew 5:17-20 - "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

[denuseri]

Sorry, but that's not true.

Sorry, but it is:

" Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "

[Thorne]

Sorry, but it is:

All of those may ADD to the law, but Jesus specifically stated that he was not abolishing Mosaic Law, or the law of the Prophets.

[denuseri]

All of those may ADD to the law, but Jesus specifically stated that he was not abolishing Mosaic Law, or the law of the Prophets.

No!.. none of them add to the law...they just explain the law allready in existance.

You are trying to use sophistry yet again to twist what was written. When Jesus told them that he wasnt here to change the Law...its becuase it didnt need changing...becuase Love...loving thy nieghbor as thyself...was allready the law!

[Thorne]

No!.. none of them add to the law...they just explain the law allready in existance.
You are trying to use sophistry yet again to twist what was written. When Jesus told them that he wasnt here to change the Law...its becuase it didnt need changing...becuase Love...loving thy nieghbor as thyself...was allready the law!

No sophistry involved at all. Mosaic law was far more involved than just that one statement, however noble it may be. Mosaic law also involved the preparation of foods, what kinds of clothes were permitted, how to treat one's bond-servants (slaves), and much more. The context of the Biblical text there makes it quite clear that Jesus was assuring the Jewish priests that he was not changing or discarding Mosaic Law.

[denuseri]

No sophistry involved at all. Mosaic law was far more involved than just that one statement, however noble it may be. Mosaic law also involved the preparation of foods, what kinds of clothes were permitted, how to treat one's bond-servants (slaves), and much more. The context of the Biblical text there makes it quite clear that Jesus was assuring the Jewish priests that he was not changing or discarding Mosaic Law.

Actually, it doesnt make anything clear other than...he is out right telling them that they were misinterpeted the Law if they didnt keep the law the way he called for it to be kept. Which means not throwing stones if you have any sin and loving thy nieghbor as one's self. Love is the basis for all of it.

[Thorne]

Actually, it doesnt make anything clear other than...he is out right telling them that they were misinterpeted the Law if they didnt keep the law the way he called for it to be kept. Which means not throwing stones if you have any sin and loving thy nieghbor as one's self. Love is the basis for all of it.

That's your interpretation. Which is fine. Others interpret it differently. Which is also fine. Some, the real hardcore fundamentalists, say the Bible is the literal word of God, not subject to interpretation but is absolutely true in every word and phrase.

The interesting part is that none of you can gainsay the others, since none of you have any evidence that your particular interpretation is any more right than the others. You each interpret according to your own feelings and beliefs. Many have those beliefs instilled in them from birth by their parents and priests. They believe they are right because they've been TOLD that they're right by others. They don't question, they don't think about it, they just parrot their elders.

The sad part is that many of them have no real clue as to what they are advocating, especially the literalists. They figure the Law is just the Ten Commandments, and that's all they worry about. In fact, Mosaic law involved hundreds of requirements, at almost every level of life. The most common answer I've heard from these literalists when confronted by this fact is, "Oh, those laws were nailed to the cross. They don't apply to Christians." Yet they have no basis for this claim other than they don't want to follow them.

Sadly, that's religion in America.