Does the Haiti earthquake prove that there is no god?

[Saheli]

If I were walking down the street and saw someone attacking another person, and did nothing to stop it, or even stood by and watched, I would be as guilty of a crime as the perpetrator, wouldn't I?

I look upon the idea of God in this same way. He COULD prevent the disaster. He doesn't, which implicates him in the suffering of the victims. Even if we assume that there is a reason for the disaster itself, God COULD protect the people, preventing unnecessary death and injury and all the horrors that the victims must suffer.

The fact that God does not intervene in these disasters leads me to two possible conclusions:
1 - Like a scientist testing bacterial colonies for resistance to antibiotics, God simply observes the results of these disasters, seeing which people survive and which do not. The suffering of those who survive in a damaged condition is immaterial to him. The survivors must live with the consequences.

2 - There is no God. Natural disasters happen, and people die and are injured. The survivors must live with the consequences.

In both cases the results are the same. Naturally, my opinion is that the second case is true, but even if I'm wrong and the first case is closer to the truth, this is certainly not the God of Abraham and Mohammad, and is most definitely not a being worthy of any kind of worship or adoration.

Now, one can probably come up with many other possible explanations for the apparent absence of any intervention by God, but they all seem to end the same way: The survivors must live with the consequences.

I completely agree that God, having not prevented the earthquake when he could, implicates him in the suffering of the victims. And now the question should not only be what does this say about God, but also what does this say about suffering? As far as God is concerned, why are the only two options that he is uninvolved or hates people? As far as suffering is concerned, again who of us could really say for certainty that any answer is correct? But there are some things that we do know about suffering: suffering gets people's attention...when someone notices suffering they go help meet needs. When people suffer sometimes they learn things they otherwise might not learn. I am NOT saying that that these are the reasons why the earthquake happened. I am only saying that there are many things to consider. So if God, who could prevent himself from being implicated in the sufferings of these innocent people allow himself to be so implicated, the larger question is why? Is God an idiot? He just didn't consider what people would think if he didn't stop the earthquake? Does he want people to think of him as a hateful creator who doesn't care about the creatures he created? Is he just not there at all, and all these questions are a waste of time? I think all the questions we can come up with are worth considering.

You say in the end of your post that other options may exist but all end the same way, with the survivors bearing the pains of the event. Yes, of course that's right. And to that point we have no idea what those consequences will mean to each individual, although I think it's pretty safe to say that this will probably (hopefully!) be the most traumatic, painful (physically/mentally) event each will ever have to endure. We all have burdens, and I am NOT trying to minimize suffering; please don't misunderstand. I am saying that everyone in this world suffers a myriad of hurts throughout life for different reasons. Those who don't believe in any kind of God or supreme being is likely to believe that hurt is random and impersonal. Some people believe that all hardships are a result of sin, and there are probably dozens of theories inbetween the two extremes. The people will have to live with what happened forever; for some it might ruin their life: perhaps they will never get over what happened. For some it might renew their faith in people, finding that people are much more compassionate than once thought. For some it might be the beginning of a new life: I've heard on the news that Obama is thinking about passing laws that would allow more Haitians (hope I spelled that right) to live in America. The point is that we have no idea what the actual implications of the consequences suffered by the people mean. We can only guess. And while nobody here would argue that the tragedy was anything less of horrendous, we simply cannot say that nothing good can come from it. I am not using that statement to say, "See, so God was good to not prevent the earthquake...some Haitians can live in America now." That is not what I believe at all.

Like I said, I have no answer as to why God wouldn't interfere. I just don't believe that it means he doesn't care, that he isn't involved, or that he isn't there.

[Saheli]

Other times I think that many Chrisitian religions seem to think of human beings as worthless things who can only pray that God will take pity on them so they won't go to hell, and who'll have to take anything God throws at them like dogs with a bad Master. That is Job's story for me.

Would you like to say more on this matter, to sort out these thoughts?
-thir

Christians who believe that they should just take whatever is throws at them are no different than other people..I mean, everyone has bad things thrown at them all the time. We just deal the best we can, hopefully learn something, and move on. I understand you're specifically talking about Job, wondering why he was so happy...well, he wasn't. My thoughts on Christians who look at the religion as being slave to a bad Master are ignorant and in my opinion not true Christians, because (as I mentioned earlier) what is the point of being a Christian (further, how CAN you be a Christian) if you do not believe in the goodness of God? I would NEVER agree to be a slave to a master I felt was evil or didn't care about me. So my response would be anyone who says their master is a bad master does not follow that master. Either they follow with disdain or do not follow at all because they do not have respect for him. So any religious person that shows disdain for a master they claim to serve is a false believer, and I wouldn't waste my time listening to anything he/she had to say.

(sorry I got long-winded and forgot to address that last point)

[13'sbadkitty]

the main reason i have opted out of religion is because of the this is the proof of God stuff and that is the same reason i opted out of atheism for the this is the proof of no god stuff. i have so many meaningful experiences and moments in my life that aren't exactly on my fun to have had happen list and they end up being on my thats how i know there is a God list. the essence of being human to me is to wonder and ponder and try to find for ones self is there or isn't there a God and what does that mean to me? rather than what do i think that means to you...sorry couldn't resist my own 2 cents being thrown in.

[Thorne]

I stopped believing when the only answer I could get to my questions was, "You have to have faith." I found I had no faith, not without evidence, and I could find no evidence. The older I've gotten and the more I've learned, the less evidence I find for the existence of any kind of supernatural being, be it the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God or any other.

IF there is a god out there, it does not seem to have any meaningful interaction with us here on Earth, and in fact doesn't seem to have any interaction at all. Everything we learn about nature proceeds exactly as our science says it should if there were no gods. And no one, in all the history of humanity, has ever been able to present verifiable evidence of any such interaction. It's all anecdotes and interpretations.

If you want to show that God exists, just show some evidence, which can be tested and verified. Maybe all those who have died in Haiti were non-Christians? Or maybe they were all atheists? Or perhaps they were all Christians, taken from the scene so they wouldn't have to suffer the aftereffects? Could it be that God only killed all the greedy, evil, criminals?

But history shows us that the killings in these disasters, whether man-made or "acts of God", are quite homogeneous. Certainly the poor tend to die in greater numbers than the rich, but there are more poor people than rich, and they tend to live in riskier environments, so that's not really meaningful.

It's quite true that, IF there is a God, we can not understand his reasons for doing anything. He is so far above us that our meager minds cannot comprehend him. But that does not make him worthy of our worship and adoration, especially if his morality is so far removed from our own. We cannot know anything about him, cannot know anything about his plans for us, either now or after death. And if his plan for the universe is set, what makes us think he will alter it just because we ask?

So until we can see uncontrovertible evidence of such a god, or any god (and by that, I mean something akin to a burning bush in the middle of Times Square doing a live televised interview with Barbara Walters!) I'll have to continue with my unbelief.

Unless I get struck by lightning!

[Saheli]

I stopped believing when the only answer I could get to my questions was, "You have to have faith." I found I had no faith, not without evidence, and I could find no evidence. The older I've gotten and the more I've learned, the less evidence I find for the existence of any kind of supernatural being, be it the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God or any other.

IF there is a god out there, it does not seem to have any meaningful interaction with us here on Earth, and in fact doesn't seem to have any interaction at all. Everything we learn about nature proceeds exactly as our science says it should if there were no gods. And no one, in all the history of humanity, has ever been able to present verifiable evidence of any such interaction. It's all anecdotes and interpretations.

If you want to show that God exists, just show some evidence, which can be tested and verified. Maybe all those who have died in Haiti were non-Christians? Or maybe they were all atheists? Or perhaps they were all Christians, taken from the scene so they wouldn't have to suffer the aftereffects? Could it be that God only killed all the greedy, evil, criminals?

But history shows us that the killings in these disasters, whether man-made or "acts of God", are quite homogeneous. Certainly the poor tend to die in greater numbers than the rich, but there are more poor people than rich, and they tend to live in riskier environments, so that's not really meaningful.

It's quite true that, IF there is a God, we can not understand his reasons for doing anything. He is so far above us that our meager minds cannot comprehend him. But that does not make him worthy of our worship and adoration, especially if his morality is so far removed from our own. We cannot know anything about him, cannot know anything about his plans for us, either now or after death. And if his plan for the universe is set, what makes us think he will alter it just because we ask?

So until we can see uncontrovertible evidence of such a god, or any god (and by that, I mean something akin to a burning bush in the middle of Times Square doing a live televised interview with Barbara Walters!) I'll have to continue with my unbelief.

Unless I get struck by lightning!

I am not trying to convince anybody of anything. I am just saying how I feel; I realize it isn't extremely popular. I saw a quote about faith once, "Faith is not believing in spite of evidence; faith is obeying in spite of consequences." To me, that means doing whatever I believe in, whether it's in God or in helping the homeless person downtown..I think more people should obey their conscience.. There is no empirical test I can give to prove God, and I don't care to try. You are entitled to your beliefs, and I don't want to interfere with that at all. There was a man once, who sought to disprove the existence of God and has said that in trying to disprove he actually ended up believing in God...seems like an interesting story, but I don't know a lot about it.

There will never be any fool-proof evidence either way; this argument will continue until the end of time. Until then we're all just wading around in our best guesses and (like you said) interpretations of the things we see and feel. I love listening to people who think differently than I do, though. It's amazing how unique we an all be.

[Thorne]

I saw a quote about faith once, "Faith is not believing in spite of evidence; faith is obeying in spite of consequences." To me, that means doing whatever I believe in, whether it's in God or in helping the homeless person downtown..I think more people should obey their conscience..

You do realize that this can also apply to murderers? A man in Kansas was just convicted of killing an abortion doctor, because he was doing what he believed in. Of course, he tried to avoid the consequences, so perhaps his faith wasn't all that strong.

There is no empirical test I can give to prove God, and I don't care to try. You are entitled to your beliefs, and I don't want to interfere with that at all.

I don't try to destroy people's faith, but I do think people have to understand their beliefs, and especially to understand how those beliefs can be twisted by leaders of organized religions. Atrocities like 9/11, or the slaughter of gays in Uganda, or the kidnapping of children in Haiti are only some of the consequences.

There will never be any fool-proof evidence either way; this argument will continue until the end of time. Until then we're all just wading around in our best guesses and (like you said) interpretations of the things we see and feel. I love listening to people who think differently than I do, though. It's amazing how unique we an all be.

I agree that there can never be fool-proof evidence to deny the existence of gods. There COULD be fool-proof evidence FOR the existence, but (conveniently) these all-powerful beings just don't seem to want to provide such evidence.

[Saheli]

You do realize that this can also apply to murderers? A man in Kansas was just convicted of killing an abortion doctor, because he was doing what he believed in. Of course, he tried to avoid the consequences, so perhaps his faith wasn't all that strong.

I see what you mean. I don't mean that everyone should follow their conscience without any boundaries. I think that's dangerous; you pointed out a very good reason why we need boundaries. I think that we should listen to our conscience and do all we feel we should with respect to laws and the basic rights of people. The man who killed the abortion doctor may claim that he was doing what he believed in, and maybe so...but to claim Christ in that murder is ridiculous, since the Bible prohibits Christians from not only murdering, but taking revenge as well. So as far as murderers are concerned, murder is against the law; laws should always provide boundaries to what we do if we are going to be decent citizens.

I don't try to destroy people's faith, but I do think people have to understand their beliefs, and especially to understand how those beliefs can be twisted by leaders of organized religions. Atrocities like 9/11, or the slaughter of gays in Uganda, or the kidnapping of children in Haiti are only some of the consequences.

I completely agree. I think that religious leaders who capitalize on natural disasters or other atrocities so that they can 'explain' how people who suffered somehow deserved it and if only everyone could be more like whoever is doing the condeming then these things wouldn't happen are completely evil. I think that is one of the absolute worst things anyone who subscribes to any religion can do.

[13'sbadkitty]

for me and what i needed as far as evidence (btw i have no major world religious views at all) was not what anyone else needs for evidence. Maybe the same thing that got my fundamentalist mother out of bed in the morning would have had me put a bullet in my brain. The argument that God can't be proved is not an effective argument for the lack of God anymore than have faith is an effective argument for believing. During the 80's and all the God caused the aids epidemic crap got me to leave the church. i can say that i have absolute evidence of a God in my life that is what i need for me. Unfortunately in my eyes, people are always the problem. Why oh why would God cause an earthquake or Tsunami or a car jacking? Just because there is evil in the world and catastrophes, that means God causes them or doesn't mind them? i don't see how that means that at all.

[Thorne]

Just because there is evil in the world and catastrophes, that means God causes them or doesn't mind them? i don't see how that means that at all.

It's not that this is evidence against gods in general, just that it is evidence against the standard J/C/I god of the bible. The point is that we don't know, cannot know, whether such gods exist without direct evidence. You can believe, or not believe, whatever you wish, but without tangible evidence it's no better than make-believe.

[13'sbadkitty]

It's not that this is evidence against gods in general, just that it is evidence against the standard J/C/I god of the bible. The point is that we don't know, cannot know, whether such gods exist without direct evidence. You can believe, or not believe, whatever you wish, but without tangible evidence it's no better than make-believe.

Here's the thing for me, it may very well be make believe but it works for me. i have tangible evidence that i see as proof that if i explained may mean absolutely nothing to you at all. i watched my oh so fundamentalist mother in church 5 or 6 days and to me it was amusing but to her it brought great comfort. i don't feel that because i don't believe in Jesus that i have the right to ask her to prove it as why would i want to remove her comfort? my ex is a devout athiest and he is as arrogant about it as some born agains are fanatical. no offense to anyone at all, btw. when groups of religious people come knocking at my door to talk, while i doubt i will ever be one of them i like talking to people who enjoy their beliefs so strongly. proof to me is in the eye of the beholder.

[Thorne]

Here's the thing for me, it may very well be make believe but it works for me. i have tangible evidence that i see as proof that if i explained may mean absolutely nothing to you at all.

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

[13'sbadkitty]

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

i actually agree with quite alot of what you said, my beliefs include respecting others paths a valid and true for them. i don't believe i have the right to judge if their path is right. my proof of God is that i no longer use drugs as do lots of people in AA, once we stopped trying on human power. that may sound corny to someone else. do i use that on my kids? not at all! they are left to figure it out. i have done the best i can to introduce as many belief systems to them and they are left to choose one, some, none or all as they see fit. proselytizing, elitism, judgment and blame are not of God at all. that's people.

[DuncanONeil]

There are fallacies in history books as well.
All likely the result of putting pen to paper! I hope that is the reason, anyway.
I suppose the big thing is; why does it need to proven either way?

If it makes you comfortable, then go ahead and believe. I have no quarrel with that. I'm not trying to prove that gods don't exist. I'm only pointing out fallacies in what we are taught about these gods. Fallacies which, to my mind, tend to deny the existence of those gods.

Any evidence which you must explain, or which is only visible to you, is not tangible evidence. While it may be valid evidence for you, enough to sustain your faith, that doesn't help anyone who cannot see it for himself. But if you come to me and attempt to preach your faith as absolute truth, based upon evidence which only you can see, I'm going to preach right back at you about the fallacy of that faith. And if you try to have that belief system forced onto young minds in school as if it were fact, I'll fight against you.

[DuncanONeil]

Such events do not disprove God!

This was the title of a program on BBC 2 today.

An age old discussion is of course that if God (Gods,Goddess) is all powerful and loving, why does he allow such things to happen?

Several in the program talked about these things being a test for your faith, or a way to improve your character because you need important choices in your life. (Apperently this would apply to survivors, whether to help each other or fight over food.)

Some said life was a gift however long or short, and we should be happy for what we get.

So, does things like the earhquake prove that there is no God and if not, why are these things allowed to happen?

Are the Gods (if they exist) really interested in us on a personal basis?

[Ozme52]

Such events do not disprove God!

That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

[Thorne]

That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

This is the fundamentalist tactic:
"I say it, therefore it's so."
"You can't show us a crocoduck, therefore evilution is wrong."
"I can't understand how the universe could have developed from nothing, therefore God did it."

They don't need evidence, they don't need explanations, simply pronouncements from on high.

[DuncanONeil]

This is the fundamentalist tactic:
"I say it, therefore it's so."
"You can't show us a crocoduck, therefore evilution is wrong."
"I can't understand how the universe could have developed from nothing, therefore God did it."

They don't need evidence, they don't need explanations, simply pronouncements from on high.

As stated;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozme52 View Post
That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

Only if you want! All I said was God has not been disproven.

I did not advocate for the other side either!

[DuncanONeil]

That's it? A pronouncement? No explanation or proof offered? Not even a discourse of how you came to your opinion? In otherwords...

I should just "believe" you?

Only if you want! All I said was God has not been disproven.

[leo9]

All I said was God has not been disproven.

Nor has the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My gods have been around a lot longer, so I could "logically" argue that the burden of proof is on newer religions.

Religions doctrines are by their nature incapable of disproof, since any contrary evidence can be handwaved (either the Devil did it, or God did it to test our faith). Absence of disproof is not proof, as Russell's Teapot famously shows.

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[DuncanONeil]

Nor is absence of proof, disproof!
Don't get me started on "contrary evidence can be handwaved". Been doing some recent reading on religion that engages ( nevermind).

Nor has the Flying Spaghetti Monster. My gods have been around a lot longer, so I could "logically" argue that the burden of proof is on newer religions.

Religions doctrines are by their nature incapable of disproof, since any contrary evidence can be handwaved (either the Devil did it, or God did it to test our faith). Absence of disproof is not proof, as Russell's Teapot famously shows.

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

[IAN 2411]

This was the title of a program on BBC 2 today.

An age old discussion is of course that if God (Gods,Goddess) is all powerful and loving, why does he allow such things to happen?

Several in the program talked about these things being a test for your faith, or a way to improve your character because you need important choices in your life. (Apperently this would apply to survivors, whether to help each other or fight over food.)

Some said life was a gift however long or short, and we should be happy for what we get.

So, does things like the earhquake prove that there is no God and if not, why are these things allowed to happen?

Are the Gods (if they exist) really interested in us on a personal basis?

I have written a book about a fictitious warrior, who like I do, believes in the old Gods, Odin Zeus, Neptune etc, I hope to have it published sometime this year, and it is being edited as I write this post. The Gods were kept in the heavens by the mortals on earth to spiritually guide them through life, and as long as people believe in them they will still exist. Stop believing in a God and he will fade away, every God that you put before me I will tell you it is a myth, because that is what I have been taught and not what I believe. In my book the Gods I am talking about where put there to oversee the world in its infancy, when we really believed in trolls, fairies, imps, elves, witches and demons. They in turn were put there by a greater being, and shall we say as in my book the Creators, and it is these beings that invisibly patrol the universe.

I don’t think for one minute that the Haiti earthquake was a test of faith; it was a natural occurrence, and before we that are in this thread die, there will be many more. There will be more Tsunamis, Earth quakes and volcanic eruptions, they are meant to happen as the earth cools, and are in the pages of time if we could read them. If these Creators were real I am sure that they have seen the destruction and death, but their hands would be tied. If you go back in time and save a life, it is a fact that you will change the future dramatically, it is the same if the Creators save thousands of lives; that are in the pages of time to die at that precise time, once again the future is changed. The lives that are saved in hospitals or minor accidents and wars are meant to be saved, as you must remember that a lot more lives die on the operating table and in the same wars. Is there a god? The unanswered Question, but the truth of the question is, if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

If these Creators were real I am sure that they have seen the destruction and death, but their hands would be tied. If you go back in time and save a life, it is a fact that you will change the future dramatically, it is the same if the Creators save thousands of lives; that are in the pages of time to die at that precise time, once again the future is changed. The lives that are saved in hospitals or minor accidents and wars are meant to be saved, as you must remember that a lot more lives die on the operating table and in the same wars.

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

[Saheli]

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

This is one of the biggest debate in Christian circles also...and there are two main groups that have formed from it. Calvinists believe that God has chosen who will become saved and who won't, and so there is no point in trying to convert anyone or even in trying to become saved, because if you are chosen then you will and if not there is nothing you can do but go to Hell. Non-Calvinsts, obviously, believe the opposite. It's also pretty obvoius that the guy who came up with Calvinistic view was named Calvin...gotta love the creativity!

[DuncanONeil]

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

I am going to go with you on this point. I believe predestination is easily disproven. But those that believe in it will not accept the proof. Since the proof is based on choice and they will state that the choice was already decided.

[Thorne]

if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

But only in your own mind.

[IAN 2411]

If these Creators were real I am sure that they have seen the destruction and death, but their hands would be tied. If you go back in time and save a life, it is a fact that you will change the future dramatically, it is the same if the Creators save thousands of lives; that are in the pages of time to die at that precise time, once again the future is changed. The lives that are saved in hospitals or minor accidents and wars are meant to be saved, as you must remember that a lot more lives die on the operating table and in the same wars.

So, predestination. The future is fixed and there's nothing we can do to change it. In which case, you have no choice in whether you believe or not. Your path is programmed from the moment of creation.

Sorry, I "choose" not to believe this.

It is your choice not to believe Thorn, that is what the free world is all about, freedom of choice, but don’t mock others that do believe. Neither should you mock the theory of the past being changed once it has been set, and yes I mean set. If you went back in time and saved all those lives that were being lost in WW Two, by killing Hitler before the war even started, then Both the UK and the USA would be in the same predicament as China with its population explosion and there would be no Israel. Once that war had been won our countries futures had been re-set, and this will keep taking place to the end of time, whether you choose to believe or not.

Is there a god? The unanswered Question, but the truth of the question is, if you believe in a God then he/she exists.

But only in your own mind.

If your wife was run over by a car while you were at work, [and I pray to God this never takes place]. Once you found out, you would be driving across town like a madman trying to get to the hospital, and in your mind you would be saying [God please let her be ok]. Thank you for stating the obvious.

[Thorne]

It is your choice not to believe Thorn, that is what the free world is all about, freedom of choice, but don’t mock others that do believe. Neither should you mock the theory of the past being changed once it has been set, and yes I mean set.

I was not mocking anyone, I don't think. At least not deliberately. But I do laugh at the predestination idea. I don't know what you mean by "the theory of the past being changed once it has been set", but I thought we were talking about the future. No, the past is done, fixed, immutable. The future is what we make it. Your post implied that the future, too was fixed, and that the gods cannot interfere because of that. That would mean, then, that our present is their past, and our path is fixed. I cannot see any evidence for that, however. While travel into the past is limited to history and archeology and such, we are all traveling into the future with every breath we take. And it's changed by every decision we make.

If your wife was run over by a car while you were at work, [and I pray to God this never takes place]. Once you found out, you would be driving across town like a madman trying to get to the hospital, and in your mind you would be saying [God please let her be ok]. Thank you for stating the obvious.

While not quite so drastic, perhaps, I was in a similar situation when my second son was born. We got to the hospital easily, they put her in a birthing room, or whatever the hell it was called then, and things seemed all right. Suddenly they were wheeling her down the corridor, nurses calling for a surgery, the doctor tearing off his jacket, asking where his people were, a nurse dragging me into a changing room to scrub and put on a surgical gown. I'll tell you, it was a terrifying few minutes, for sure. But I didn't call on some fictional deity for help. I called my mother. On the phone. Does that make her God?

People dream up all kinds of creations in their minds. Libraries are full of these creations. It's called fiction. Thinking about them doesn't make them real. Writing about them doesn't make them real. The gods of modern man are no more real than the gods of Valhalla, or Mount Olympus, or the great god Gurk who brought the mammoths each year.

[Thorne]

13'sbadkitty,
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. And I'm glad that your faith has helped you to deal with that loss.

My own parents are still here, though my mother is not well. Thankfully she's not in any pain, but she has become more religious as she's grown older. It brings her comfort and I try to support her in it where I can. Like you, I won't try to force my beliefs, or lack of them, on anyone. I only ask that they provide me the same courtesy.

Again, my condolences.

[DuncanONeil]

Thorne has his opinions and he is not shy about sharing them. I would not accuse him a laying ridicule on the beliefs of others. The comments about "belief in fantasies" does not rise to that level.
He is perfectly willing to allow you those beliefs, but not PC enough to avoid telling you that he thinks you are wrong.

It is your choice not to believe Thorn, that is what the free world is all about, freedom of choice, but don’t mock others that do believe. Neither should you mock the theory of the past being changed once it has been set, and yes I mean set. If you went back in time and saved all those lives that were being lost in WW Two, by killing Hitler before the war even started, then Both the UK and the USA would be in the same predicament as China with its population explosion and there would be no Israel. Once that war had been won our countries futures had been re-set, and this will keep taking place to the end of time, whether you choose to believe or not.




If your wife was run over by a car while you were at work, [and I pray to God this never takes place]. Once you found out, you would be driving across town like a madman trying to get to the hospital, and in your mind you would be saying [God please let her be ok]. Thank you for stating the obvious.

[13'sbadkitty]

i am getting married in a few months and wanted a ceremony that had more than the requirements of New York State. i found an officiant who was raised a Jew, became a Zen Buddhist and is a Reverend. He and i were talking he said something i really liked which is maybe veering off the path alittle bit. He said what we call God really comes down to alphabet. The one thing i do teach my kids is that God is everywhere and in everyone if you look hard enough. i practice Native American spirituality. The only thing of that that i try to impress upon them is respect everything as part of Creator and Creation. Everything has something to show you if you look. As Ian said there will be many more deaths in many more ways till the end of time. My mother just died 12/24 after being sick for 5 years and suffering the entire time. As in Job, she was a devout Christian when she got sick. There were times when she said that she didn't know why God let her suffer so. As in Job, the only thing anyone could do was sit quietly and attend to her suffering. i went to the Tibetan book of the Dead for my guidance in how to help her. Did anything i or the Christians do help her? She had also gone to the Rabbi during her lucid times as she was from a Jewish background. Did he bring her comfort? i don't know. She suffered worse than anyone i have ever watched die and cried out for help 24/7. The morning she died she spoke to her aide (she hadn't been lucid for months) and told her she was ready to die, to rest in peace and she died shortly after. So my point is this, during her suffering it clearly looked like all the faith in the world did nothing at all for her. She had said she felt abandoned. In the last moments of her life ( a devout life) it was clear that her faith had sustained her and led her to the next plane. i do not believe in heaven or hell. i do believe in a spirit world that mirrors this except we are closer to the Creator. i do believe we have lessons to learn that help us to grow in the direction our spirit is to grow. Do i think that i have the right to tell you how to live? in my beliefs that is a very big no no. My point is only that suffering doesn't mean that God is allowing it as death is part of this world. We suffer through birth, we suffer through death. To me its the same, to you it is what ever it is. Suffering is as pleasure is. To me reflections of the same thing. Nobody ever walks into a tv or radio station saying there was no natural disasters today so this is proof that God is here. i think its beautiful that we think and wonder and discuss the God idea as part of being human. To me, its proof that somewhere within us is a spot that needs this to grow. If there is a God and God wanted us to know for sure, it seems like it would be easy enough. i think we are meant to wonder and discuss and argue about this. i know i went several different directions at once with this post, random girl strikes again.