Should corporal punishment in schools stay legal?

[fetishdj]

A lot of Bad Science (and the online forums and newspaper column that goes with it - it appears regularly in the Guardian and most of the book is actually reprints from the articles) revolves around analysis and understanding of the placebo effect. It is a real effect that can have a significant effect on physiology. Both the expectations of patients AND researchers/clinicians can influence the results of a trial which is why we do double blinding (where neither the patient/subject nor the researcher/clinician know who has got which drug) in order to eliminate the effect of placebo because EVERYONE in the trial beleives that the pill is going to be effective (and it has been shown that clincians change their whole demeanour when they give out a known placebo which influences the manner of the patient in so many subtle ways). It is interesting to note that a noted homeopathist did state publically that the reason they did not submit their remedies to double blind testing was because these trials did not work... so effectively admitting that they only rely upon the placebo effect.

Bad Science is quite an eye opening book in many ways. It showed me, a hardened scientist who has worked in the field and seen the effects of badly applied experiments first hand, a few scary truths. Homeopathy is only a minor thing in comparison to the horror that was the 'South African potato which cures HIV' scandal.

But this is an aside...

The problem with corporal punishment is that it teaches the wrong lessons and does not build good social reasoning skills. It is better to have a system of carefully worked out consequences for actions and make sure that these are clearly stated and understood. Also, such a system needs to be collaborative rather than authorative - the rules worked out in co-operation with the class rather than in competition with them.

[IAN 2411]

QUOTE=fetishdj;876898]The problem with corporal punishment is that it teaches the wrong lessons and does not build good social reasoning skills. It is better to have a system of carefully worked out consequences for actions and make sure that these are clearly stated and understood.[/QUOTE]

Having been the victim of corporal punishment on more than one occasion I have to differ with you fetishdj. It was in the school as a deterrent against violence, but the only down side it had at my school was the fact that both offenders were punished. I mean both the attacker and the person defending himself, and that does teach the wrong lessons. I defended myself three times and got punished three times along with my attacker. It was on the fourth time that things went from bad to worse, and I refused the punishment and would not bend over the desk. The head master grabbed my ear and twisted and i mean it was so hard he nearly ripped my ear off, I pulled away and kicked him in the balls and walked 8 miles home. I had to have hospital treatment on my ear and it damn near sent me deaf. I was expelled from all schools for one year, now there is some sense for you.

There was nothing wrong with the corporal punishment, but the proof of guilt was the thing that was wrong. I remember that it did act as a good deterrent but without some sort of legislation it was more dangerous to the attacker and victim than the actual fight. I will say this though in the school the teachers were respected, there was never unruliness in the class room. If a teacher said quiet get on with your work that has been set out, you could hear a pin drop. No student that I can remember lifted his/her hand to a teacher, unlike today where the teachers in some schools in the UK fear reprisals from students.

Think about it you sent adults to prison for theft, mugging, assault, rape, murder, one punishment to fit a multitude of crimes. Some reoffend but a great number with the right help on the outside don’t. So if you can teach a violent child with regulated violence to show that it does not pay, and in the mean time only a small minority reoffends it cannot be bad.

Regards ian 2411

[fetishdj]

The potential for abuse, as you describe above, is one major objection. It has been shown that punishment (of any form) applied arbitarily and without fairness or evidence (which is what happened to you) only leads to problems. It is hard to know for certain who is guilty in many cases in schools - you are relying on shaky evidence (usually it is one kid's word against another) and a teacher cannot be everywhere at once to be able to see all that goes on. Now, it is better to send both pupils to a time out zone (seperate time out zones) where they can think about thier actions than to apply a rather severe penalty to both which at least one of them is going to regard as unfair.

From my experience in schools, deterrents do not work. Not at all. Any more than capital punishment or the possession of nuclear weapons act as a deterrent against violence in the adult world. Humans have emotions and make mistakes and sometimes act without thinking about the consequences. Often the only thought is the short term reward rather than the nebulous possible future consequence. So, misbehaviour will still happen because it is more fun than work and punishment is something that happens in the future (and most children have a very arrogant 'it will never happen to me' attitude). And, even if you do get caught and beaten, hey - all the cool kids get caned, you can lord it over the other kids for a while.

[blacqcobra]

Let us get something straight. There is obviously a difference between Punishing a child and abuse. Growing up and before i had my first born I was on the side line saying talk to your children and spare the rod. As a child I got my ass kicked only once by my Ol' man. Not because of my disobedience, but because my father was a man who believed insanely about the use of lying....he hated it. Compared to it to stealing. Thus when I forged my grade report with his signature, and was quickly found out. Point blank holding the note from my teacher he asked did I forge his signature? To which, an idiot child that I was at that moment decided, I'd lie. My father waited until I'd taken my bath and promptly tore into my hide. As my mother stood helplessly by crying " You'll kill him Robert!!! To which he shouted back " Damn straight, helped to bring him into this world got the right to take his ass out!!! No son of mine lies to me!!!" For almost a year My father never trusted me checking everything I said was the truth. I think that hurt more than anything else. I learned more from my fathers distrust in me. Thus I discovered my love for pain also. He wailed me so that my entire body was covered in welts......I was turned on by the sight of my body. But only after the pain and my initial screaming in agony had subsided! I wanted so badly after that, to be whipped, but dared not tke the chance, for fear I'd not make it out alive. I knew the one button to push, on my father. But I feared his wrath more so than the love of being whipped. Instead here in America if a kid got his ass whipped and the others found out, you were the laughing stock of the neighborhood. " Dude, heard you got yo' ass whooped haahaahaahaahaaa!!!

[fetishdj]

There's another one by Socrates (I think, been a long time since I looked at this) which says something similar - something about youth having no respect and spending all their time in the gym or bathhouse...

[fetishdj]

I have worked in many schools, some of them quite rough inner city schools, and I have yet to see a knife or hear about a knife related crime in any of them. Most that you get in most schools is mobile phone theft and the usual bullying plus the addition of cyber bullying in the modern day.

The number of knife crimes, regardless of what the tabloids say, is actually very low and the reasons these stories get so much reportage is because of their relative unusual occurence. Also, any knife incidents are more likely related to gang culture elements, many of whom do not actually attend school at all, than the sort of kids who are at school to be disciplined. When the media is following a story they tend to focus on what they want to report rather than what is actually happening because the complete truth is often not entertaining enough to sell. This causes a skewed perception of an issue.

[denuseri]

Actually:

According to the latest annual statistics for crime in England & Wales:

A British Crime Survey reported that out of the 2,715,000 violent crimes reported; those involving use of weapons make up almost 75% of the incidents with a sharp implement making up about 27% of the reported crimes.

Overall statistics indicate that homicides have more than tripled from 1965 to today.

Around 10% of 11-12 year olds reported carrying knives last year alone and 46% of 15-17 year olds admitting to carrying knives for self defence out of neccesity.

According to Ian Johnston the Chief Constable for British Transport Police & the Justice Board / Mori in 2003:

"Pupils in London Schools carry knives on average 30-35% of the time and that 1 in 5 of 16 year old boys admit to having attacking someone with a knife with the intent of causing serious injury."

[IAN 2411]

I have worked in many schools, some of them quite rough inner city schools, and I have yet to see a knife or hear about a knife related crime in any of them. Most that you get in most schools is mobile phone theft and the usual bullying plus the addition of cyber bullying in the modern day.

Get real fetishdj it never takes place in school, and do you honestly think that a child whatever age between 10 and 18 is going to shout out to the world he carries a knife?

When the media is following a story they tend to focus on what they want to report rather than what is actually happening because the complete truth is often not entertaining enough to sell. This causes a skewed perception of an issue.

Do you honestly believe that the press would glorify death and mutilation just to make it more entertaining, that is a very shallow perception of the news reporters?

Regards ian 2411

[Thorne]

Do you honestly believe that the press would glorify death and mutilation just to make it more entertaining, that is a very shallow perception of the news reporters?

Maybe things are different in the UK, but have you ever watched a news program in the US? It sometimes seems the reporters will trample over anyone doing a good deed just to get an interview with the brother of the boyfriend of the sister of the wife of a murderer. And among the first questions will invariably be, "How could you not have known this would happen?" or some variation.

I don't watch news broadcasts anymore. They have become partisan reality shows more often than not.

I get my news from the Internet, now, where I KNOW everything is Fair and Balanced! </sarcasm>

[Lion]

Do you honestly believe that the press would glorify death and mutilation just to make it more entertaining, that is a very shallow perception of the news reporters?

Regards ian 2411

Yes.

[DuncanONeil]

Yes.

When I was in Japan, every news show had a segment called "Crime and Accidents Around the Nation". One could say it was sensationalism, but with n two or three days they followed up with the opolice catching the perp. Now that is fair and balanced!

[tdav73]

when i was a kid it was the way things were
we could take a pocket knife to school and no one minded
if you got into a fight it was just a fight no one worried that the kid that lost would bring a gun and start shooting up the place
and when the teacher was teaching you stayed quit and learned
i know its because our moms and dads teachers cared about us and set the rules down for us to follow and if we didn't we were in trouble and corporal punishment was what we got
how did any of my generation survive without airbags bike helments carrying knives car seats and the goverment telling our parents how to raise us
fyi im in my late 30's

[DuncanONeil]

when i was a kid it was the way things were
we could take a pocket knife to school and no one minded
if you got into a fight it was just a fight no one worried that the kid that lost would bring a gun and start shooting up the place
and when the teacher was teaching you stayed quit and learned
i know its because our moms and dads teachers cared about us and set the rules down for us to follow and if we didn't we were in trouble and corporal punishment was what we got
how did any of my generation survive without airbags bike helments carrying knives car seats and the goverment telling our parents how to raise us
fyi im in my late 30's

Just think how tough it was for those of us that might be twice your age! What with all those gun-totin' westerns all over the place! And a staple at the movies as well!

[Thorne]

Just think how tough it was for those of us that might be twice your age! What with all those gun-totin' westerns all over the place! And a staple at the movies as well!

That's true, Duncan. But remember, you could always tell the good guys in those movies. They were the ones with the white hats. Nowadays you can't hardly tell the good guys from the bad guys. Some of today's "heroes" are far worse than the worst bad guys faced by Hopalong Cassidy or Sky King!

[DuncanONeil]

That's true, Duncan. But remember, you could always tell the good guys in those movies. They were the ones with the white hats. Nowadays you can't hardly tell the good guys from the bad guys. Some of today's "heroes" are far worse than the worst bad guys faced by Hopalong Cassidy or Sky King!

Paladin & Zorro wore black hats!!

[Thorne]

Paladin & Zorro wore black hats!!

True, but Paladin was a hired gun. Basically, a bad guy who sometimes did good. And Zorro was a rebel, a traitor to his government. And Don Diego de la Vega, a Spanish nobleman, did wear a white hat. Or at least gray.

[denuseri]

If it was the helmet and visor of a knight and facing a certian way it may have something to do with the title of the individual as well. If one could view the standard it would certiantly help.

[Thorne]

Ask and you shall receive!

[denuseri]

Thank you so very much kind Sir!

Now lets see....hummm...this doesn't really belong in any lind of traditional familial crests or other formats of offical heraldry from what I can tell....so...analogies in comparrison of it with such would be subjectively spurious imho.

Which way it is facing could mean well, anything really...shrugs.

<<<checks the threads topic real quick.

Having been absent for a little while from the thread I sorta lost track of how this sidebar developed.

In any event, (and this isnt just becuase I like the occasional spanking) I am all for capital punnishment in schools, we can't have enough of it if you ask me.

[Thorne]

Thank you so very much kind Sir!

You're quite welcome.

Which way it is facing could mean well, anything really...shrugs.

LOL! Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I'd come to myself.

In any event, (and this isnt just becuase I like the occasional spanking) I am all for capital punnishment in schools, we can't have enough of it if you ask me.

So we can expect to see more teachers getting spanked, now?

[denuseri]

Only when they are "naughty". lol

[Stealth694]

I got my tail swatted once or twice during my "growing years" it didn't hurt me ( except when I sat down )
But Today's kids will push the envelope with school, parents,, whatever because they do not fear any reprocussions.
In Madison one 15 yr old is accused of sexual assault,,, 2 13 yr olds are accused of strong arm robbery in school.
These kids think they don't have to worry about punishment because they are under 16. I wonder what they will do when they
are adults? Recently one 18 yr old was arrested for murder, turns out he had been arrested for sexual assault when he was 14.
Go Figure.

[DuncanONeil]

Not only are we teaching the young that it is never their fault, but that there are never any consequences. One of the reasons they do not do well in school! Only one!

I got my tail swatted once or twice during my "growing years" it didn't hurt me ( except when I sat down )
But Today's kids will push the envelope with school, parents,, whatever because they do not fear any reprocussions.
In Madison one 15 yr old is accused of sexual assault,,, 2 13 yr olds are accused of strong arm robbery in school.
These kids think they don't have to worry about punishment because they are under 16. I wonder what they will do when they
are adults? Recently one 18 yr old was arrested for murder, turns out he had been arrested for sexual assault when he was 14.
Go Figure.

[Thorne]

Not only are we teaching the young that it is never their fault, but that there are never any consequences. One of the reasons they do not do well in school! Only one!

But it's a BIG one!

And I think it's more subtle than that. It's not that there are never any consequences, but that the consequences don't apply to them. They are not being taught to accept responsibility for their actions. They are being taught that it's always someone else's fault.

It's a hell of a way to raise a generation.

[DuncanONeil]

But it's a BIG one!

And I think it's more subtle than that. It's not that there are never any consequences, but that the consequences don't apply to them. They are not being taught to accept responsibility for their actions. They are being taught that it's always someone else's fault.

It's a hell of a way to raise a generation.

Not like you to miss something so obvious. "we teaching the young that it is never their fault,"

[Thorne]

Not like you to miss something so obvious. "we teaching the young that it is never their fault,"

Not "WE"! It's THEM. It's always THEM!

My own children were taught, by me, to accept responsibility for their own mistakes, and for their own triumphs.

[denuseri]

Thats what happens when you remove negative reinforcment from morality and ethics in any human system.

And by system I don't just mean just the educational one, but also the parent/child system.

[Thorne]

Thats what happens when you remove negative reinforcment from morality and ethics in any human system.

And by system I don't just mean just the educational one, but also the parent/child system.

I agree. It seems the parent/child system in this country is broken, as is the child/school system, and more so for the parent/school system. Too many parents don't want the school disciplining their child, and yet refuse to provide the discipline themselves.