The Death Penalty or Life Meaning Life

[IAN 2411]

I agree that the criminal justice system is flawed, and injustices are far more common than is realised or admitted. I also agree with your observation that the system is loaded against particular sections of society: black youths, the working classes and the unemployed, abused women and so on. This has been illustrated in this very thread, where whole sections of society have been labelled "trash" and "yobs" (instinctively, I believe, not maliciously) for which the harshest penalties must be used to punish their crimes.

Murder is not a black or working class crime. It is certainly not a female crime. While more murders occur among the lower classes, they are usually committed in the heat of the moment, whereas, when a killing takes place among the higher social classes, power or money is usually the motive. It might be cynical of me, but I suggest that working class killers use murder where they see no other option, or where they lose control, while upper class killers see murder as the most expedient way to achieve their purposes, after calculating the pro's and con's and concluding that a person's death is necessary. Such people would never be called yobs or trash.

I do agree with you on the points that you have mentioned about the two classes of murder or shall we say killings. There is a third however and you have only hinted at it by mentioning other members posts, and that is the gang related murders. These gangs roam our Cities and towns in the UK looking for other gangs, and it is just to show face and protect their teritory, and when these gangs fight each other and a member gets killed, that is premeditated and should be rewarded with a harsh and long imprisonment. One other point i would like to make, and that is a person should never kill as the last resort unless it is accidental in self defence, or could not be avoided in self defence. This is not an argement against what you say, but just my personal feelings.

Regards ian 2411

[DuncanONeil]

I agree that the criminal justice system is flawed, and injustices are far more common than is realised or admitted. I also agree with your observation that the system is loaded against particular sections of society: black youths, the working classes and the unemployed, abused women and so on.

I have to take exception to the characterization above. Much of the support for the claim is the "fact: that a larger percentage of these people are actually in prison.

Perhaps that is because more crimes are actually committed by these groups.

Now I know I do not have data. While I was refilling my tea I thought about the data. It has to exist somewhere but I have to devlop the question to ask in order to find it.
I have to find data on arrests vs convictions somehow.

[SadisticNature]

I have to take exception to the characterization above. Much of the support for the claim is the "fact: that a larger percentage of these people are actually in prison.

Perhaps that is because more crimes are actually committed by these groups.

Now I know I do not have data. While I was refilling my tea I thought about the data. It has to exist somewhere but I have to devlop the question to ask in order to find it.
I have to find data on arrests vs convictions somehow.

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias. Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

[DuncanONeil]

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

You move from the general to the specific quite quickly here. You have referred to "assumptions", yet you are doing just that in the above statement. Said assumption being that police are intrinsically suspicious of black people. No one can provide empirical evidence that such is the case. Why does the border matter or is that meant to be a lead in to the following paragraph?

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

Yes it is anecdotal. And as previously stated there is no empirical data. If one of four, all guilty, were searched it seems reasonable to suggest there was some trigger, yes you would like to say color, it could be as simple as being nervous, or the manner in which questions are answered, or even a general manner of presentation.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias.

Not sure about the "level of crimes". That could mean nature or quantity. However with police located throughout the city there is no real reason to presume that criminals caught does not represent the set of criminals in general. Your issue of bias here is either poorly thought out or poorly stated. As written it presupposes a strong bias in any random sampling. In terms of the stats on crime we have at least three sets of data. Crimes committed, criminals arrested, and criminals convicted. Neither of these sets represents a random sample. They are the complete set!

Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

While the following are in fact my words they are a compiled sets of understanding of what you wrote. Happens that my daughter dropped by and read what you had to say in this scenario. Her opinion is that your entire scenario is biased.
She feels it is important to know what type of crime occurred. And further notes that in each case that you "assume" the black is the person chased.
In the description you have the officer presented with a crime scene with two people fleeing. That act by its nature makes both parties suspicious. In every point after that you "assume" the officer chases only the black. Can you not see that as a bias on your part. I know what I would do but, the officer on the scene is most likely to focus on the closer suspect than a specific factor of that suspect. Also in such situations decisions are made in a manner and speed that determination of why, can not be made, even well after the event. I have seen video of a person fleeing from the police make a high jump onto a wall that appears to be at least five feet high, sorry I am not going to try and chase him, no matter what he looks like.
It is so easy to dissect an officers actions after the fact. But such usually totally ignores the fact that every decision, in chases, must be made in fractions of seconds.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

A police force responding to a chase does not respond with a single unit. Multiple units will automatically negate your "assumption" that only the black will be chased. Also every case you posit has the non black getting away. Not only from the scene but with the crime. You really think that an accomplice caught by the police is going to take all the blame on themselves and let someone else walk free?

[DuncanONeil]

I have seen that three case senario here before. As to the data I was looking for I found some and am in the process of putting it in a form that willo be readable here. Some of the numbers may be surprising.
Still looking for convictions, think I have someplace to pick them out.

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias. Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

[DuncanONeil]

Answer Part One
Sourcebook of criminal justice statistics Online
http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t412008.pdf

Table 4.1.2008

Estimated number of arrests a

By offense charged, United States, 2008

Offense charged
Total b 14,005,615

• Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter 12,955
• Forcible rape 22,584
• Robbery 129,403
• Aggravated assault 429,969
• Burglary 308,479
• Larceny-theft 1,266,706
• Motor vehicle theft 98,035
• Arson 14,125
• Violent crime c 594,911

aData are based on all reporting agencies and estimates for unreported areas.
bBecause of rounding, figures may not add to total. Total does not include suspicion.
cViolent crimes are offenses of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery,
and aggravated assault.
dProperty crimes are offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson.
Source: U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Crime in the United
States, 2008, Table 29 [Online]. Available: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias. Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

[DuncanONeil]

Answer Part Two
Total arrests
American
Indian or Asian or
Alaskan Pacific
Total White Black Native Islander

TTL 10662206 7382063 3015905 142908 121330


Murder 9859 4721 4935 99 104
Rape 16847 10990 5428 198 231
Robbery 100525 41962 56948 681 934
Assault 328736 208081 112325 4453 3877
Burglary 235407 157252 73960 2077 2118
theft 979145 666360 286844 12684 13257
GTA 74881 44674 28510 795 902
Arson 10734 8139 2331 132 132

Viole \b\ 455967 265754 179636 5431 5146
Prpty \c\ 1300167 876425 391645 15688 16409

Percentages to follow

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias. Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

[DuncanONeil]

Answer Part Three
American
Indian or Asian or
Alaskan Pacific
Total White Black Native Islander

100.00% 69.20% 28.30% 1.30% 1.10%


Murder 100 47.9 50.1 1 1.1
Forcible rape 100 65.2 32.2 1.2 1.4
Robbery 100 41.7 56.7 0.7 0.9
Assault 100 63.3 34.2 1.4 1.2
Burglary 100 66.8 31.4 0.9 0.9
Larceny-theft 100 68.1 29.3 1.3 1.4
GTA 100 59.7 38.1 1.1 1.2
Arson 100 75.8 21.7 1.2 1.2

Violent crime\b\ 100 58.3 39.4 1.2 1.1
Property crime\c\ 100 67.4 30.1 1.2 1.3

\a\Because of rounding, percents may not add to total.
\b\Violent crimes are offenses of murder and nonnegligent manslaugh-
ter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.
\c\Property crimes are offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle
theft, and arson.

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias. Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

[DuncanONeil]

I suspect that data on so-called random stops would be next to impossible to produce short of actually getting the specific police logs or radio logs.

While you're at it you could try and find data on random stops. Police tend to be more suspicious of black people, so there are a far higher rate of random stops, and a far higher rate of searches at the border etc.

I have several acquaintances who smoke marijuana, 4 of whom took their personal amounts across the border, the three white guys weren't searched, the one minority was. Admittedly this is only an anecdotal case, but if stuff like this plays out in the larger data, then its quite likely blacks are not necessarily committing more crimes but rather are being treated with suspicion and hence are caught more frequently.

So looking it how arrests compare to convictions wouldn't show you the larger picture of what level of crimes are being committed. It would only show you what level of crimes are being caught. Assuming a random sampling is certainly problematic as there is strong evidence of bias. Take for instance racial profiling:

The idea behind it was that blacks committed a higher percentage of crimes, so if a police officer has two suspicious people (one white, one black) fleeing the scene of a crime and can only chase one of them they go after the black guy. There are several possibilities for what actually happened here:

Case (i): The black guy did it. They likely catch him and prosecute.

Case (ii): The white guy did it. He escapes the initial scene, and chances are somewhat poor that they track him down to catch him and prosecute.

Case (iii): They were accomplices. The black guy likely gets caught and is prosecuted. He may or may not turn over his accomplices.

So if you have a police force that responds to a chase scene in this way, you would have bias in your data. The white guy is far more likely to not be caught for this crime than the black guy.

[13'sbadkitty]

what about the separate justice systems for the wealthy from the middle and working class? A Kennedy can allow a woman to drown and die a respected member of society, or bash in a girls head with a set of golf clubs and nothing really happens. i can try and not offend people by keeping my beliefs about some things that continue to go on in this country and get little to no penalties. i won't even go down the road of why is it that certain celebrities seem to get away with things i would have gotten a lethal injection for? the death penalty has been proved to NOT be a deterrent, costs more than life in prison and makes society guilty of murder imo. are there ever cases where i would like someone killed as i am disgusted by what they have done? of course. My Master and i were discussing this issue last night and He is pro death penalty. He brought up serial killers. i don't even think they would stop for a second, in fact might be encouraged at the notoriety.
it has been shown that treatment is more cost effective than prison, and no one wants the money to treat. Very wealthy men fund all these street level crack dealers and gangs and never get caught. We seem to accept a certain futility as a society with regard to the drug and gang problem and solely react to clean up the mess rather than deal with the problem. It seems to me its an us and them problem for most people who would rather see the drug problem as a them problem. i live on long island in New York. There are articles now in the newspapers addressing our heroin and crack problem as its now seen as a white kid problem. Crying mothers interviewed about kids dead or in jail. I find it to be disgusting that it wasn't even viewed as a real issue for everyone until some idiot figured out white suburban kids do drugs. perhaps when people figure out white kids kill kids in turf wars too it will be dealt with.

[MMI]

Good points well made, badkitty.

[MMI]

I guess you have a point about the knife gangs you refer to, but are they as bad as the razor gangs that terrorised Glasgow between the wars, or the gangs in Liverpool and Sheffield? It's not a new problem, and it'll take a helluva lot of rope to hang them all. Remember, they had hanging back then.

[IAN 2411]

I guess you have a point about the knife gangs you refer to, but are they as bad as the razor gangs that terrorised Glasgow between the wars, or the gangs in Liverpool and Sheffield? It's not a new problem, and it'll take a helluva lot of rope to hang them all. Remember, they had hanging back then.

I'll answer that from experience of that era, i was up in Glasgow in 1968-9 doing a keeping the army in the public eye tour, it was just another name for recruiting. There was a notorious gang on the Gorbles estate, [im am not sure if that is spelt right] and i believe they were called The tongs, and their name was in gaffiti all over Glasgow. there was a book writen on the notoriosness of the gang and its leader, called i believe, The Razor King. On leaving Glasgow on friday morning, there was a newspaper sitting on the seat that i picked up, it was the daily record, and the front page picture that took the whole of the page except the headlines, was of a baby, no more than a few months old. She/he had a slash from the corner of the eye to the corner of the mouth, it was a razor cut, and it was done while the mother was pushing a pram with the baby in. That picture haunts me now even after all these years later. In answer to your question,; no thank heavens, they are nothing like the razor gangs.

Regards ian 2411

[MMI]

I guess you have a point about the knife gangs you refer to, but are they as bad as the razor gangs that terrorised Glasgow between the wars, or the gangs in Liverpool and Sheffield? It's not a new problem, and it'll take a helluva lot of rope to hang them all. Remember, they had hanging back then.

I'll answer that from experience of that era, i was up in Glasgow in 1968-9 doing a keeping the army in the public eye tour, it was just another name for recruiting. There was a notorious gang on the Gorbles estate, [im am not sure if that is spelt right] and i believe they were called The tongs, and their name was in gaffiti all over Glasgow. there was a book writen on the notoriosness of the gang and its leader, called i believe, The Razor King. On leaving Glasgow on friday morning, there was a newspaper sitting on the seat that i picked up, it was the daily record, and the front page picture that took the whole of the page except the headlines, was of a baby, no more than a few months old. She/he had a slash from the corner of the eye to the corner of the mouth, it was a razor cut, and it was done while the mother was pushing a pram with the baby in. That picture haunts me now even after all these years later. In answer to your question,; no thank heavens, they are nothing like the razor gangs.

Regards ian 2411

I think I might remember that incident.

I also think I made my point above badly: I shouldn't have compared today's knife gangs with pre-war razor gangs because they are/were both just as bad as each other. I'm quite sure that a baby's face could be slashed today: psychopaths will never go out of fashion.

What I really meant to point out was that this is an age old problem, and I don't see us ever getting on top of it, no matter how we punish them.

[Gladius]

Oh no! Why UK need's a death penalty? You have ban gun's and knives. There can not be violence any more. They tell me gun's and knives make murder. Not peoples. What shall we ban next? Cut the arms off peoples? Then they can not push the trigger or knife edge.

[MMI]

We didn't abolish the death penalty simply because we abolished violence through gun control, because we haven't. I read recently that GB is the most violent country in Europe, and is worse than USA (!) and even South Africa (!!). I have no reason to doubt the statistics, although it comes to me as a surprise and a shock to learn that we rank among the worst societies in the world.

Perhaps there are special situations to take into account - for example, perhaps the statistics include terrorism in Northern Ireland - but perhaps I am looking for excuses or am in denial. I find it hard to believe that the streets of London are more dangerous than those of Washington DC or Jo'burg.

Maybe I must face facts. After all, wasn't it only a month ago that a taxi driver went on a murder campaign in Cumbria, and killed or injured 37 people, using legally held weapons, while a fortnight later, four people received gunshot wounds in Birmingham. Even as I write, BBC 1's News at Six is full of reports about a Tyneside gunman who, just out of prison, has shot his girlfriend, her lover, and a police constable, and who has "declared war" on the Northumbria Police, is being stalked by armed police toting semi-automatic weapons. A village has been locked down and a 5 mile exclusion zone set up around it, as they search for this killer. It is being suggested that this man has chosen to "commit suicide by cop," a nasty phrase reflecting insidious conduct by the "victim" (by choice). And so the violence escalates.

I have argued on these threads that countries that do not have the death penalty are in some way better than those that do; I would write smug messages asserting that the British or European approach to crimes of violence - particularly murder - demonstrates a higher level of civilisation which should be emulated by all other countries, and I would hear no rebuttal. I was right and I knew it. But now I see that Britain is no better, no safer, no more peaceful than anywhere else, rather, it is worse, more dangerous, and more violent than most places, and I ask myself if the death penalty really is the answer.

... well that would require a radical rethink of all my principles, and I am not prepared to rehearse all the arguments for and against capital punishment on this board (Thank God! I hear you chorus). Instinctively, I still feel it is wrong, and I still feel it reflects a higher level of social standards not to have the death penalty than to have it ... but just because most of us behave one way, there's no proof that it will make others, who are less inclined to, behave the same way.

So, if GB is such a violent place to live in, and guns and other weapons are strictly controlled, how can we protect ourselves? I don't think there is any popular desire for guns to be de-regulated so we can protect ourselves, and I don't think there is enough evidence to support the re-introduction of the death penalty. What other options are there?

[Thorne]

I have argued on these threads that countries that do not have the death penalty are in some way better than those that do; I would write smug messages asserting that the British or European approach to crimes of violence - particularly murder - demonstrates a higher level of civilisation which should be emulated by all other countries, and I would hear no rebuttal. I was right and I knew it. But now I see that Britain is no better, no safer, no more peaceful than anywhere else, rather, it is worse, more dangerous, and more violent than most places, and I ask myself if the death penalty really is the answer.

Despite my being an advocate for the death penalty, I can honestly say that, No, the death penalty is not the answer. It is only a small part of the answer. While it may seem inhumane to some, I think you may be learning that there are some people for whom the only true defense for society is the death penalty.

Instinctively, I still feel it is wrong, and I still feel it reflects a higher level of social standards not to have the death penalty than to have it ... but just because most of us behave one way, there's no proof that it will make others, who are less inclined to, behave the same way.

There is ample evidence that the death penalty is not a valid deterrent to violent crimes. Most such crimes are done in the heat of passion, with little or no thought given to punishment. The only true justification I can give for having it is that it eliminates the possibility of a truly dangerous person ever committing another crime. Far too often people who are given a life sentence are released for "good behavior" and allowed back into society. Perhaps most will not relapse. But it only takes one.

So, if GB is such a violent place to live in, and guns and other weapons are strictly controlled, how can we protect ourselves?

This is the core of the problem, I believe. You really can't protect yourselves. I have seen reports of victims trying to defend themselves against criminals receiving higher penalties than the criminals. That's not justice!

I don't think there is any popular desire for guns to be de-regulated so we can protect ourselves, and I don't think there is enough evidence to support the re-introduction of the death penalty. What other options are there?

Surprisingly, the answer actually is in deregulation. In those areas of the US where people are able to get licenses to carry concealed weapons, street crimes are down, as are home invasions. When the criminals don't know if they are going to be met by meek victims or armed defense, they think twice about committing the crimes. I think you'll find that the great majority of gun crimes committed in the major cities of the US are gang and drug related. Sadly, too many of their victims are innocent bystanders, but few law-abiding citizens will mourn the deaths of drug dealers.

A well-armed, and well-trained, citizenry can do more to cut down on violent crimes than anything else, surprisingly. With few exceptions, the store owner who shoots the person trying to rob his store will be far less likely to have to shoot anyone else once the word gets around.

I am sorry to hear about your crisis of faith, though, MMI. I'll try not to say, "I told you so."

[DuncanONeil]

You are presenting yourself with a quandry. You see the killing of others as wrong and uncivilized. But at the same time realize that there are those that do not, and in fact deliberately do so.
Now it is to determine what is to be done with these people? At least we must be certain that they can not continue to kill! The only sure way is to make it impossible for them to do so. A life term in prison, that is not solitary confinement, does not even provide that certainty. Further is it proper to ask society to support a demonstrably non-productive member for life?

We didn't abolish the death penalty simply because we abolished violence through gun control, because we haven't. I read recently that GB is the most violent country in Europe, and is worse than USA (!) and even South Africa (!!). I have no reason to doubt the statistics, although it comes to me as a surprise and a shock to learn that we rank among the worst societies in the world.

Perhaps there are special situations to take into account - for example, perhaps the statistics include terrorism in Northern Ireland - but perhaps I am looking for excuses or am in denial. I find it hard to believe that the streets of London are more dangerous than those of Washington DC or Jo'burg.

Maybe I must face facts. After all, wasn't it only a month ago that a taxi driver went on a murder campaign in Cumbria, and killed or injured 37 people, using legally held weapons, while a fortnight later, four people received gunshot wounds in Birmingham. Even as I write, BBC 1's News at Six is full of reports about a Tyneside gunman who, just out of prison, has shot his girlfriend, her lover, and a police constable, and who has "declared war" on the Northumbria Police, is being stalked by armed police toting semi-automatic weapons. A village has been locked down and a 5 mile exclusion zone set up around it, as they search for this killer. It is being suggested that this man has chosen to "commit suicide by cop," a nasty phrase reflecting insidious conduct by the "victim" (by choice). And so the violence escalates.

I have argued on these threads that countries that do not have the death penalty are in some way better than those that do; I would write smug messages asserting that the British or European approach to crimes of violence - particularly murder - demonstrates a higher level of civilisation which should be emulated by all other countries, and I would hear no rebuttal. I was right and I knew it. But now I see that Britain is no better, no safer, no more peaceful than anywhere else, rather, it is worse, more dangerous, and more violent than most places, and I ask myself if the death penalty really is the answer.

... well that would require a radical rethink of all my principles, and I am not prepared to rehearse all the arguments for and against capital punishment on this board (Thank God! I hear you chorus). Instinctively, I still feel it is wrong, and I still feel it reflects a higher level of social standards not to have the death penalty than to have it ... but just because most of us behave one way, there's no proof that it will make others, who are less inclined to, behave the same way.

So, if GB is such a violent place to live in, and guns and other weapons are strictly controlled, how can we protect ourselves? I don't think there is any popular desire for guns to be de-regulated so we can protect ourselves, and I don't think there is enough evidence to support the re-introduction of the death penalty. What other options are there?

[MMI]

It's not a crisis of faith, nor an epiphany, and I haven't recanted yet, Thorne. I am simply questioning my position in the light of information I was previously unaware of, and, to be honest, am having difficulty accepting.

You say that a "well-armed and well-trained citizenry" would do more good than anything else. But what about a well-armed but poorly-trained citizenry? Are you advocating another law like the one in the C16th suppressing the playing of cricket in favour of compulsory target practice on the village green? What's the American experience here?

(In fact, it was necessary for that law to absolve archers from the crime of murder if they killed someone during archery practice! Would it be necessary to have a modern law making a similar provision?)

I wonder if crime in America has fallen in areas where concealed weapons can be carried because the criminals fear their "marks" could be dangerously incompetent gunmen. Or does that not matter, because crime has fallen and the end justifies the means?

[Thorne]

You say that a "well-armed and well-trained citizenry" would do more good than anything else. But what about a well-armed but poorly-trained citizenry?

First of all, this is only my opinion.I have no hard facts to back it up. But I definitely mean a well-trained citizenry. I believe every registered gun owner should be required to pass certification tests in the handling, maintenance and safety of weapons. Those who cannot pass the tests should not be granted a permit.

(In fact, it was necessary for that law to absolve archers from the crime of murder if they killed someone during archery practice! Would it be necessary to have a modern law making a similar provision?)

Not at all! Those who apply for permits to own and carry concealed weapons should not be considered part of the militia unless they are actually called into service by their government. Given proper gun safety and licensed practice ranges there should be no problems with such incidents.

I wonder if crime in America has fallen in areas where concealed weapons can be carried because the criminals fear their "marks" could be dangerously incompetent gunmen. Or does that not matter, because crime has fallen and the end justifies the means?

I don't know the reasons for it, only that it does seem to be the case. I would think that a dangerously incompetent gunman might be more dangerous to himself than to any potential criminal.

Does the end justify the means? I don't know the answer to that. Sometimes it might. But the death of one innocent person by an armed civilian who thinks he is only defending himself would negate any good that has been done. ANY death or even injury occurring during a criminal attack would have to be investigated by the police, but with the prevalence of CCTV cameras virtually everywhere, that should be far less of a problem than in the past. And an armed civilian who killed an attacker without just cause would have to be charged and tried just as any criminal would be.

As I've said in the past, I don't claim to have all the answers. But it is my strong belief that disarming civilian populations only makes them more likely to be targets of criminals, not less. As GB is learning, it's impossible to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. Not allowing citizens to defend themselves only makes the criminals bolder.

[MMI]

Having let the question simmer in my mind a while, I have decided I am still 100% against the death penalty. I can see no reason for it. None. I push the doubts I expressed earlier aside completely.

The idea of untrained members of the public carrying weapons in public is horrifying. To allow it is licensing vigilante-ism, which is utterly despicable. The prospect of people pulling a gun on another at the merest suggestion of trouble does not bear contemplation, and any authorities that encourage it are, in my opinion, reckless of the law and order they are supposed to enforce, and complicit in any deaths that result. There are no longer any new frontiers where savages and outlaws are liable to swoop down any second and massacre us for our trinkets. There is no danger of redcoats swooping down from Canada to steal hard-won liberties. There's not even any danger of the elected rulers usurping power and overthrowing the constitution - not even where the ruler is a black moslem-loving communist.

No-one has the right to take another person's life, not, to my way of thinking, even in self-defence unless there is no other way to save oneself, and anyone who does take life must show inthe cold light of day and beyond reasonable doubt that his fear of immediate death was real and that there was no other reasonable alternative to save himself. Failure to demonstrate these conditions should lead to a presumption of manslaughter at least.

And because no-one has the right to take another life, except in the most extreme circumstances, it follows that judicial murder is also unacceptable.

It seems to me that the answer must be tougher controls and restrictions on the manufacture, sale, importation and exportation, and possession of offensive weapons of all kinds, and heavy penalties for transgressing the law. OK - it won't stop criminals, but what law ever did? Raoul Moat would've got a gun regardless of what the law said, but maybe Derrick Bird would not; and if he hadn't, 12 lives would not have been pointlessly wasted. Tighter controls will stop people who are not professional lawbreakers from becoming killers by accident or any other cause.

[Thorne]

Having let the question simmer in my mind a while, I have decided I am still 100% against the death penalty. I can see no reason for it. None. I push the doubts I expressed earlier aside completely.

I knew I could drive you back into your shell!

The idea of untrained members of the public carrying weapons in public is horrifying.

Absolutely! That's why I support mandatory training, with frequent refresher courses.

There are no longer any new frontiers where savages and outlaws are liable to swoop down any second and massacre us for our trinkets.

Obviously you've never strolled through a city park after sundown. In most cities I wouldn't recommend it without Kevlar and an assault rifle.

There is no danger of redcoats swooping down from Canada to steal hard-won liberties.

One thing you have to give the British credit for: they learn from their mistakes. After getting their butts handed to them twice they're not likely to try again; and they eventually got rid of those silly red uniforms!

No-one has the right to take another person's life, not, to my way of thinking, even in self-defence unless there is no other way to save oneself,

What about to save someone else? If I see a man walking into a daycare center carrying a large machete, say, and I have the opportunity to take him out, but not the ability to reach him before he enters the building, should I pop him in the back and save countless kids? Or should I dial 911, wait on hold for 3 minutes, then have the police summoned? I know what I'd do!

and anyone who does take life must show inthe cold light of day and beyond reasonable doubt that his fear of immediate death was real and that there was no other reasonable alternative to save himself.

And just who is to define reasonable? You? The criminal? His family? These things happen in seconds! There's no time for reasonable, only for reaction, which is why training is so important.

Failure to demonstrate these conditions should lead to a presumption of manslaughter at least.

All killings are investigated as manslaughter. The difference between the US and England seems to be that the victim (the person attacked) is not presumed to be guilty because he defended himself.

And because no-one has the right to take another life, except in the most extreme circumstances, it follows that judicial murder is also unacceptable.

Except in the most extreme circumstances, of course.

It seems to me that the answer must be tougher controls and restrictions on the manufacture, sale, importation and exportation, and possession of offensive weapons of all kinds, and heavy penalties for transgressing the law.

These controls already exist. They are ineffective.

OK - it won't stop criminals, but what law ever did?

Laws allowing citizens to take action in their own self defense certainly stops a lot of criminals.

Tighter controls will stop people who are not professional lawbreakers from becoming killers by accident or any other cause.

But these people are not the source of the problem. Sure, accidents do happen, but they are very rare, and can result in charges of criminal negligence when they do occur. An average citizen who, for whatever reason, goes off his rocker and decides to kill his whole family will find a way to do so with or without guns. Regardless of the controls, the professional criminals will still get hold of weapons, and still use them, because they will know that their victims will not be able to fight back effectively.

[MMI]

One thing you have to give the British credit for: they learn from their mistakes. After getting their butts handed to them twice they're not likely to try again; and they eventually got rid of those silly red uniforms!

Actually, we don't learn. Otherwise we'd have stayed out of Afghanistand this time.

Furthermore, I am told that those silly red uniforms actually made it harder for enemy scouts to get a good estimate of troop numbers from any kind of distance. Perhaps they weren't as silly as the white ones the French used to wear.

As for handing us our butts back ... twice ... it was only recently that I had to remind you (1) that the French and the indians won your little revolution for you, while the treacherous woodmen who had turned on their own kin just tagged along for the reflected glory and (2) the Canadians won the war of 1812 as the Americans tried to turn their northern cousins against the homeland again. Canada understands the true meaning of loyaly, however. That's why Canada fought in the two world wars last century from the beginning instead of waiting till it was virtually over, and then moving in to pick up the victory.

Meanwhile, although the French won a minor victory in America, we took them apart in every other theatre of that global war, as well as defeating the Dutch, the Russians, the Swedes and the Spanish. So, while it hurt to lose the 13 colonies, it's to be expected if you only send your least competent officers. And it didn't amount to much when you look at the big picture. Plus we did get all of the French Canadian possessions to make up for the loss. So, well done you ...!

[Thorne]

Actually, we don't learn. Otherwise we'd have stayed out of Afghanistand this time.

Well, it did take you two tries against the US, and this is only the second try in Afghanistan, so....

Furthermore, I am told that those silly red uniforms actually made it harder for enemy scouts to get a good estimate of troop numbers from any kind of distance.

That may be true, but it certainly made it easier to see where the troops were.
You might enjoy this. Trust me, it's relevant.

As for handing us our butts back ... twice ... it was only recently that I had to remind you...

Yeah, yeah, I got all that. But still, the British Army had to leave, didn't it?

That's why Canada fought in the two world wars last century from the beginning instead of waiting till it was virtually over, and then moving in to pick up the victory.

Perhaps a topic for another thread. But remember, the US did provide material support before actually getting involved, both times. And US volunteers fought in both wars long before the government decided to get involved.

[MMI]

1. We've been in and out of Afghanistan since 1842, and never won, and never learnt

2. Yes, we had to leave the USA afte the first revolution, but I didn't think that was the point you were making. After the second, USA had to leave Canada (where it hadn't already been driven out, that is).

[DuncanONeil]

Thank you Thorne!

I knew I could drive you back into your shell!


Absolutely! That's why I support mandatory training, with frequent refresher courses.


Obviously you've never strolled through a city park after sundown. In most cities I wouldn't recommend it without Kevlar and an assault rifle.


One thing you have to give the British credit for: they learn from their mistakes. After getting their butts handed to them twice they're not likely to try again; and they eventually got rid of those silly red uniforms!


What about to save someone else? If I see a man walking into a daycare center carrying a large machete, say, and I have the opportunity to take him out, but not the ability to reach him before he enters the building, should I pop him in the back and save countless kids? Or should I dial 911, wait on hold for 3 minutes, then have the police summoned? I know what I'd do!


And just who is to define reasonable? You? The criminal? His family? These things happen in seconds! There's no time for reasonable, only for reaction, which is why training is so important.


All killings are investigated as manslaughter. The difference between the US and England seems to be that the victim (the person attacked) is not presumed to be guilty because he defended himself.


Except in the most extreme circumstances, of course.


These controls already exist. They are ineffective.


Laws allowing citizens to take action in their own self defense certainly stops a lot of criminals.


But these people are not the source of the problem. Sure, accidents do happen, but they are very rare, and can result in charges of criminal negligence when they do occur. An average citizen who, for whatever reason, goes off his rocker and decides to kill his whole family will find a way to do so with or without guns. Regardless of the controls, the professional criminals will still get hold of weapons, and still use them, because they will know that their victims will not be able to fight back effectively.

[DuncanONeil]

First I trimmed your post because You are entited to personally held beliefs. But I feel constrained to respond to the view of Every random Joe Blow running out and getting a firearm, and carrying it around, because it is allowed.
Every law permitted Concealed Carry (CCW) mandates training and a permitting process. There are two different languages in the law; one is "shall" issue and the other is "may" issue. In either case the permit is controlled by law enforcement. Certain categories are prohibited in the law. All such laws require training. But all that aside there is only a small percentage of the people that will avail themselves of the right to carry. It is the uncertainty that offers deterrence. Currently there are only two states in the US that do not allow CCW, I happen to live in one and the President comes from the other. Think on this for a moment, while it is illegal to CCW where I live it is perfectly legal to carry a firearm in an open fashion! That means I could strap on a holster, put my 9mm Bersa in it, go out and conduct my daily chores and be perfectly legal!

The idea of untrained members of the public carrying weapons in public is horrifying. To allow it is licensing vigilante-ism, which is utterly despicable. The prospect of people pulling a gun on another at the merest suggestion of trouble does not bear contemplation, and any authorities that encourage it are, in my opinion, reckless of the law and order they are supposed to enforce, and complicit in any deaths that result. There are no longer any new frontiers where savages and outlaws are liable to swoop down any second and massacre us for our trinkets. There is no danger of redcoats swooping down from Canada to steal hard-won liberties. There's not even any danger of the elected rulers usurping power and overthrowing the constitution - not even where the ruler is a black moslem-loving communist.

[denuseri]

So we are going from death penalty to gun control?

Cuase Im all about good gun control.

You know, the kind that lets me hit what I aim at.

<<is perfectly willing to eaither break out the links or start pulling quotes from the last gun control thread for ammunition here if we are planning on having a lil shootout...lol.

[MMI]

I only introduced gun control as an alternative to imposing capital punishment, den. I'll debate the merits of gun control with anyone till the come home, but that wasn't my purpose in the last message.

[DuncanONeil]

The problem here is that there is gun control and then there is GUN CONTROL.

Much of what Thorne had said in regard to training and the permitting process is a form of gun control. Too often "gun control" is understood to mean a limit on ownership. This is actually illegal in the US.

"Monday, June 28, 2010

Supreme Court rules Second Amendment applies to states
Hillary Stemple at 11:15 AM ET

Photo source or description
[JURIST] The US Supreme Court ... on Monday ruled [opinion, PDF] 5-4 in McDonald v. Chicago ... that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment ... right to bear arms applicable to the states as well as the federal government. The case arose over a city of Chicago ordinance effectively banning the possession of handguns. ... Justice Samuel Alito, delivering the opinion of the court, cited the court's 2008 opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller ... and reversed and remanded the case for further proceedings, stating:

In Heller, we held that the Second Amendment protects the right to possess a handgun in the home for the purpose of self-defense. Unless considerations of stare decisis counsel otherwise, a provision of the Bill of Rights that protects a right that is fundamental from an American perspective applies equally to the Federal Government and the States. We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment right recognized in Heller.

(http://jurist.org/paperchase/2010/06...-to-states.php)

I only introduced gun control as an alternative to imposing capital punishment, den. I'll debate the merits of gun control with anyone till the come home, but that wasn't my purpose in the last message.