Submissive and Feminist

[star_catcher77]

I'm a feminist also, but not the conventional one. I completely agree with everything that lily just said. The feminist movement, the way it has been going, is only doing harm for women in general. The way that I subscribe to feminism is that I don't think that women should have so much pressure on themselves to be cosmetically perfect all the time. Don't interpret this the wrong way; I'm not saying women should never wear makeup or shave their legs or try to look good. I know that it's fun to dress up and look stunning sometimes, it really is fun. What I'm saying is they shouldn't feel like shit if they go outside one day without spending time sprucing themselves up. It's honestly so sad how far women have been pushed in regards to their expectations. I'm a substitute teacher sometimes at the local schools, and it's really disgusting for me to view the social interactions of those kids...not only as a psychologist, but as a human being.

That being said, it's this way with a lot of movements, a lot of my favorite movements. It's frustrating. They're all working against themselves. One example at the front of my mind is sexual orientation discrimination. When activists stand up for the rights of gay/bi/trans sexuals, what they're doing in essence is *seperating* those individuals from the rest of the populace. Do we really need to isolate them more? The original problem is that the normal community shuns them. It's ridiculous. I do believe that someone needs to stand up for their rights but the current activists are going about it absolutely wrong!

As per the original question; your submissiveness has nothing to do with your feminist views. Being a feminist is something that is on a broad scale, encompassing everyone that it influences; namely women. Your submissiveness only deals with you as an individual, and your craving for something. Do you think that all womens should be enslaved and kept in shackles? I doubt it. So feel free in your submissiveness, it's something you have that most people don't. It lets you be happy so don't throw it away. From an acutely feminist point of view; it would be wrong of you to deny women the *choice* of submissiveness . But seriously, it's fine, for all the reasons I just gave.

Enjoy,
~star

[vampyres{ID}]

I could be called a feminist, but our problem is we take EVERYTHING way to far. They aren’t pushing anymore for equality; they are pushing for better then Men. I am a firm believer in equality for the Sexes, My mother and I both Helped work on and Ran my dads Construction company (Which is why I now hate hard line feminists, and even a good portion of woman I meet) this is there version of Equal rights, they should have the same job but they shouldn’t be made to do the same work, take a look at Military standards PT tests, higher requirements for Men than they have for Woman, go work on Construction, a large portion of the Woman on a Job Sight will Piss, moan, Bitch and complain that they can’t lift what they are asked, or do some other requirement of the job and get out of it, then bitch again because they get passed over for a promotion and a Man (Who mind you did his job without whining and did all the duties asked of him) got “her promotion.” And don’t even get me started on what they can get away with on Sexual harassment, its to the point where even I couldn’t tell a racy joke without risk of offending some of these…. (I won’t finish this sentence because I will not call them the same sex as me, prefer to call them something nasty)

And at the Risk of pissing someone off all of our equality isn’t, our latest repressed minority is a Man and normally he is white. We have courts that force men to pay for children who have been proven not theirs, we give options to woman that men can not and will never have, We give less demanding rolls to woman listing them as the same job and expect woman to deserve the same pay as that guy who is doing to more demanding roll. We have Affirmative Action to protect the Minority but we are creating another minority, because we cannot grant greater treatment to one person over another in the name of equality, in no stretch is that real equality. (Mind you this is coming from a Half blood Cherokee/Sioux Woman so call me racist/sexist if you want to, but know I love myself, I love myself enough to except who and what I am despite that it goes against what I have been taught to be, I was never taught to submit to a man, I was taught to be a true equal, not this bastardized equality that the feminists want, my submission is mine by choice, and if it screws with the Feminist movement as set down by Hardcore feminists I am glad of my roll in screwing with that movement, because Men are just as deserving of rights as woman)

[slave327-834-200]

for all of your replies, I had a feeling I may not be alone in having questioned this part of myself and as I hoped raising this subject has opened up other, valuable, points of view to me.

I understand and agree with many of the points made regarding the feminist movement and feminists loosing sight of what the "cause" was. I am in no way an active or extreme feminist and I couldn't agree with Moptop more when she said
"I believe that women are still quite often not respected and treated as equals within the workplace, or at home: where they are capable of providing an equal service, they should be treated equally. Where they are capable of better, they should be respected as such. Where they are less capable, they should be able to accept it."

I don't feel I have to justify something that feels so entirely natural to me but this supposed contradiction has been on my mind a while and I wanted to hear others view points on it and still hope to hear more.

I am grateful to be surrounded by such open and intelligent women here and if ever questioned on this in the future I will use the following quote.

From an acutely feminist point of view; it would be wrong of you to deny women the *choice* of submissiveness

[star_catcher77]

for all of your replies, I had a feeling I may not be alone in having questioned this part of myself and as I hoped raising this subject has opened up other, valuable, points of view to me.

I understand and agree with many of the points made regarding the feminist movement and feminists loosing sight of what the "cause" was. I am in no way an active or extreme feminist and I couldn't agree with Moptop more when she said
"I believe that women are still quite often not respected and treated as equals within the workplace, or at home: where they are capable of providing an equal service, they should be treated equally. Where they are capable of better, they should be respected as such. Where they are less capable, they should be able to accept it."

I don't feel I have to justify something that feels so entirely natural to me but this supposed contradiction has been on my mind a while and I wanted to hear others view points on it and still hope to hear more.

I am grateful to be surrounded by such open and intelligent women here and if ever questioned on this in the future I will use the following quote.

I'm just going to nitpick here and say I'm not a woman just a cool, down-to-earth, sensitive male. but still intelligent

I'm glad we all share similar opinions as well. goes to show, that it takes a certain amount of intellect to truly admire and cherish BDSM.

[fantassy]

I find it sad that most here who are bashing the feminists are so young they don't know what life was like before the "radical feminists" fought for us. Sometimes you have to "take it too far" in order to create change. Modern women owe the feminists a debt of gratitude. Their fight is what allows us a choice now. Even if you choose to be a full-time homemaker, you have the comfort of knowing that if for some reason your husband became abusive, you wouldn't have stay and suffer through it. You would have options. You would get child support. You would have a chance to get a decent paying job other than waitress or housekeeper. Even though fairness has not yet been achieved, let me tell you, things are much much better than they used to be. Let me share a personal experience that occured before the feminists changed our world. I was in a mini- after school "exploring careers" class when I was in the 7th grade which was led by our male principal. We discussed various careers, took aptitude and IQ tests and he advised use about particular careers to consider. I had 140 IQ, had the highest grades in the class, was already taking algebra, scored at a college level in verbal abilities, and expressed how much I enjoyed reading and English class. You know what career the principal advised for me ? A secretary. Now there is nothing wrong with being a secretary, but you can be damn well sure he wasn't advising the boys who had anywhere near my abilities to be secretaries. Pisses me off to this day. Believe me, women's abilities would not have gotten recognized until they were actually allowed into those professions and positions of power where people were forced to see that, yes, women can do just as good a job if not better. Yes, I am a feminist, and I say thank you to those radical feminists who fought the huge fight and changed the world thus giving young women more choices. To get off my rant, I don't see any conflict between being a feminist and a submissive. The choice to submit is mine. That's what being a feminist is all about - having the choice.

fantassy

[vampyres{ID}]

I find it sad that most here who are bashing the feminists are so young they don't know what life was like before the "radical feminists" fought for us. Sometimes you have to "take it too far" in order to create change. Modern women owe the feminists a debt of gratitude. Their fight is what allows us a choice now. Even if you choose to be a full-time homemaker, you have the comfort of knowing that if for some reason your husband became abusive, you wouldn't have stay and suffer through it. You would have options. You would get child support. You would have a chance to get a decent paying job other than waitress or housekeeper. Even though fairness has not yet been achieved, let me tell you, things are much much better than they used to be. Let me share a personal experience that occured before the feminists changed our world. I was in a mini- after school "exploring careers" class when I was in the 7th grade which was led by our male principal. We discussed various careers, took aptitude and IQ tests and he advised use about particular careers to consider. I had 140 IQ, had the highest grades in the class, was already taking algebra, scored at a college level in verbal abilities, and expressed how much I enjoyed reading and English class. You know what career the principal advised for me ? A secretary. Now there is nothing wrong with being a secretary, but you can be damn well sure he wasn't advising the boys who had anywhere near my abilities to be secretaries. Pisses me off to this day. Believe me, women's abilities would not have gotten recognized until they were actually allowed into those professions and positions of power where people were forced to see that, yes, women can do just as good a job if not better. Yes, I am a feminist, and I say thank you to those radical feminists who fought the huge fight and changed the world thus giving young women more choices. To get off my rant, I don't see any conflict between being a feminist and a submissive. The choice to submit is mine. That's what being a feminist is all about - having the choice.

fantassy

Those were not radical feminists, the radical feminists are the ones who push the cause into extreme, and there is nothing extreme about wanting equality, there is an extreme in wanting superiority. Like Comparing Martin Luther King to the Black Panthers here, one espouses equality through compassion, and the other is preaching superiority through hate.

[fantassy]

Those were not radical feminists, the radical feminists are the ones who push the cause into extreme, and there is nothing extreme about wanting equality, there is an extreme in wanting superiority. Like Comparing Martin Luther King to the Black Panthers here, one espouses equality through compassion, and the other is preaching superiority through hate.

You don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. was pushing the cause into extreme? Boycotts? Marches? Passive resistence? He could have preached compassion until he was blue in the face and would have achieved nothing if he hadn't organized action. Believe me, the Southern Conservative White Men perceived MLK, Jr. as a radical. Most feminists do not hate men - they just hate the way some men use the system against women.

fantassy

fantassy

[star_catcher77]

You don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. was pushing the cause into extreme? Boycotts? Marches? Passive resistence? He could have preached compassion until he was blue in the face and would have achieved nothing if he hadn't organized action. Believe me, the Southern Conservative White Men perceived MLK, Jr. as a radical. Most feminists do not hate men - they just hate the way some men use the system against women.

fantassy

fantassy

no, martin luther king jr. was not at all extreme. He had the right idea, and was pretty damn smart. Extreme would be, as vampyres said, the black panthers or even Malcolm X (yeah, I'll go there). Martin Luther King also practiced in a way that tried to get things across to both sides of the arguments; the blacks AND the whites. His vision was for both to live in harmony, and it worked. along with african americans, a lot of white people showed up for his talks and a lot of them liked what he had to say.

with radical feminism, they're not appealing to both sides; only to other radicals. I may be young, but I can clearly see the world around me. I havn't suffered gender discrimination, but i have suffered discrimination of other sorts, and I can safely say that I understand the way in which that works, and ways to remedy it. In my own little personal movement against sexual orientation discrimination, I've witnessed the current efforts being made in it, and it's so obvious to me how they're going about it totally the wrong way. Much of the same applies to feminism as well.

@vampyre: I totally agree, it's all about the requirements for the job. unfortunately, the real world doesn't seem to like working that way

[vampyres{ID}]

You don't think Martin Luther King, Jr. was pushing the cause into extreme? Boycotts? Marches? Passive resistence? He could have preached compassion until he was blue in the face and would have achieved nothing if he hadn't organized action. Believe me, the Southern Conservative White Men perceived MLK, Jr. as a radical. Most feminists do not hate men - they just hate the way some men use the system against women.

fantassy

fantassy

There is Nothing Extreme about peaceful protests sorry, this is after all America where that is one of our rights (Unless you consider being an American pretty extreme, one of those little things along with freedom of Speech we have) Militant Feminists are hatefull and are just as bad as the Black Panthers, and the KKK, if you haven't caught these ones here are some quotes for you (I dunno sounds like hate Speech to me) These are the Feminists of today, this is their goals of today, and this is why I refuse to call myself a feminist, I will not be party to this nonsense.

"Marriage is an institution developed from rape as a practice."
"The penis must embody the violence of the male in order for him to be male. Violence is male; the male is the penis; violence is the penis..."
Andrea Dworkin, Pornography

"Men's need to dominate women may be based in their own sense of marginality or emptiness."
"While men strut and fret their hour upon the stage, shout in bars and sports arenas, thump their chests or show their profiles in the legislatures, and explode incredible weapons in an endless contest for status, an obsessive quest for symbolic 'proof' of their superiority, women quietly keep the world going."
"He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women, whether mate, acquaintance, or stranger; he can rape or sexually molest his daughters, nieces, stepchildren, or the children of a woman he claims to love. The vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above."
Marilyn French, the War Against Women

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
Barbara Jordan

"Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience."
Catherine Comin

"Men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can 'reach WITHIN women to f%*k/construct us from the inside out.' Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women's own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, 'even if she does not feel forced.'"
"I feel what they feel: man-hating, that volatile admixture of pity, contempt, disgust, envy, alienation, fear, and rage at men. It is hatred not only for the anonymous man who makes sucking noises on the street, not only for the rapist or the judge who acquits him, but for what the Greeks called philo-aphilos, 'hate in love,' for the men women share their lives with--husbands, lovers, friends, fathers, brothers, sons, coworkers."
Judith Levine

"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
"To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he's a machine, a walking dildo."
Valerie Solanas

"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness...can be trained to do most things."
Jilly Cooper

"I feel that 'man-hating' is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
Robin Morgan

"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
Susan Griffin

"MALE:...represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants...the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female."
"MAN:...an obsolete life form... an ordinary creature who needs to be watched...a contradictory baby-man..."
'A feminist Dictionary', ed. Kramarae and Triechler

"In general, most men are really selfish. They see only one side of the story. Most women have the ability to see two sides of things...I think I am superior to all men. I think women are superior to men but society doesn't allow them to feel that way. I think most women feel subservient to men. Women really do have all the brains and all the power."
Joanna Angel

[Hime]

Those were not radical feminists, the radical feminists are the ones who push the cause into extreme, and there is nothing extreme about wanting equality, there is an extreme in wanting superiority. Like Comparing Martin Luther King to the Black Panthers here, one espouses equality through compassion, and the other is preaching superiority through hate.

The term "radical feminist" does not refer to a women who thinks women are superior to men. That would be a Female Supremacist.

A radical feminist is someone who believes that changes on a legal level are not enough to achieve true gender equality, and that in order for people to live without the oppressive nature of a gender heirarchy, we must undertake a mission of cultural change as well.

I am a radical feminist and a submissive woman. When my fiance and I decided to explore this side of our relationship, we agreed on certain boundaries: our BDSM play will never interfere with my family life (I am close with my parents and brother), my education or my career. He has been good about holding to this agreement -- for instance, he may punish me by making me wear certain clothes, but I never have to wear them to school or work-related events, or around my family. I am a professional stage performer, so we can't do anything that's going to leave marks on parts of my body that will be exposed, etc.

To be honest, for all of my sexually-mature life I have had fantasies about situations that would not be compatible with my worldview were they to happen in real life. But for me, it's quite enough to maintain the life I have with my husband, engage in role-playing with him in private, and enjoy some "alone time" with my more extreme fantasies.

It is a little disappointing to me that so few fellow posters seem to share my social views. But then, sharing a lifestyle choice doesn't mean that we have to agree on everything. My dom has a Masters' (appropriately enough ) in English and is well-versed in gender theory and feminist criticism, and considers himself a feminist. If he weren't, well, things would be very different.

[fantassy]

It is a little disappointing to me that so few fellow posters seem to share my social views.

Maybe we should start a club - SDF Subs and Doms for Feminism

fantassy

[moptop]

You know what career the principal advised for me ? A secretary.

Being an older person myself, I had exactly the same experience (although it was also suggested I could be a teacher). I was and am still outraged. I am very aware and very pleased that so much positive progress has been made, whilst being aware that more is needed - in order for both sides to achieve respect for eachother's abilities and differences, and to be treated fairly by law and by society.

That doesn't change my stance rejecting the fanatical side (of anything, but in this case feminism), which I believe does do the good and necessary side of the continued feminist battle a disservice.

I don't see any conflict between being a feminist and a submissive. The choice to submit is mine. That's what being a feminist is all about - having the choice.

Yup.

fantassy[/QUOTE]