Simple Non Religious Question

[Moonraker]

I think we all would agree that it is the responsibilty of all adults to to "teach" morals and proper conduct to the youth they come into contact with. As a schoolkid if I didn't give up my seat on the bus to a lady the conductor or an adult would point out my impoliteness in no uncertain terms.

Forgive me if I hijack this thread a bit with a related point. Should morals, politeness and similar subjects which all go to making us all "decent citizens" be taught in a formal manner at schools. I would say yes. They are more important than algebra or learning about the roman empire and it is something that every person needs to know and master. And in an increasingly multi-cultural world perhaps the morals of other cultures is worth knowing or at least being aware of.

[mkemse]

I think we all would agree that it is the responsibilty of all adults to to "teach" morals and proper conduct to the youth they come into contact with. As a schoolkid if I didn't give up my seat on the bus to a lady the conductor or an adult would point out my impoliteness in no uncertain terms.

Forgive me if I hijack this thread a bit with a related point. Should morals, politeness and similar subjects which all go to making us all "decent citizens" be taught in a formal manner at schools. I would say yes. They are more important than algebra or learning about the roman empire and it is something that every person needs to know and master. And in an increasingly multi-cultural world perhaps the morals of other cultures is worth knowing or at least being aware of.

I would define Morals, a personal conduct, habits, ect like not only being polite but teacging children the dangers of Drugs, Unprotected Sex, aswell as other things parent feel they feel their kids need ot know as they gorw and learn Morals to me is a whole sum of how the persons, asks, behaves, how they treat ofthe,r what type of activities the ingage in, ie: sports, debate clases, drug or no drug use, having sex ect ect it encompases on they learn to live their lives ans how treat and act around others

[Thorne]

Morality is a very slippery concept, one which changes over time and distance. What one person considers to be immoral, another will consider perfectly acceptable. Those in this community must certainly be hyper-aware of that.

If you walk through a shopping mall in this country, I would venture to guess that upwards of 75% of the female shoppers you see will be wearing pants, whether jeans or slacks. A hundred years ago it would have been considered immoral and, in some places, illegal, for a woman to wear man's clothing. Even today, in some areas of the world, it would be a crime carrying severe penalties.

So how can you teach morality to a child? Certainly, the parents hold the largest share of the responsibility. They must raise the child within their own standards of morality. But when a child is spending a third of his day, perhaps half of his waking time, outside of the home he must also learn from others. Teachers, especially, have a responsibility, not only to teach a curriculum, but also to teach the children how to interact with one another, how to stay within an accepted mode of conduct. And they must help the children to reconcile the real world with what they are taught at home. How can a child cope with the idea that what they have learned from their parents as being immoral and unacceptable behavior in the home is common practice and perfectly acceptable at school? It is the teachers who must teach them to deal with these contradictions.

Police are also expected to teach acceptable codes of conduct. Many police representatives go around to schools teaching of the dangers of drugs and gangs. True, their focus tends to be more on the legal side of the issues, as it should be. But there is still the acceptable mode of conduct which the children must learn. And once again, how can a child reconcile being told by police and teachers that drugs are bad, and then go home to parents who regularly use some form of drugs for recreation?

And where do we draw the line? If my code of morality differs significantly from society as a whole, how far can I be permitted to go in teaching my children this code? How far can I go to enforce this morality with my children? Recently there was a case in Canada involving a teen-aged girl who refused to wear the burka, or hajib, at school. She was killed by her father for this refusal. Admittedly, Islam does not condone the death of this girl for this particular "crime" but it does apparently permit the father to beat her for her disobedience, an act which many people in this country consider far more repugnant than the girl's refusal to obey her father's wishes.

Did this girl commit an immoral act? By her father's standards, and the standards of his religion, yes, she did. By the standards of their adopted country, absolutely not! Again, where does one draw the line?

We cannot rely solely on the parents to teach morality, not if we wish the children to become integrated into society. It has to be taught by everyone, whether through active teaching or simply by example. We must all bear the burden of this training, because we must all bear the burden of our failure.

[mkemse]

Morality is a very slippery concept, one which changes over time and distance. What one person considers to be immoral, another will consider perfectly acceptable. Those in this community must certainly be hyper-aware of that.

If you walk through a shopping mall in this country, I would venture to guess that upwards of 75% of the female shoppers you see will be wearing pants, whether jeans or slacks. A hundred years ago it would have been considered immoral and, in some places, illegal, for a woman to wear man's clothing. Even today, in some areas of the world, it would be a crime carrying severe penalties.

So how can you teach morality to a child? Certainly, the parents hold the largest share of the responsibility. They must raise the child within their own standards of morality. But when a child is spending a third of his day, perhaps half of his waking time, outside of the home he must also learn from others. Teachers, especially, have a responsibility, not only to teach a curriculum, but also to teach the children how to interact with one another, how to stay within an accepted mode of conduct. And they must help the children to reconcile the real world with what they are taught at home. How can a child cope with the idea that what they have learned from their parents as being immoral and unacceptable behavior in the home is common practice and perfectly acceptable at school? It is the teachers who must teach them to deal with these contradictions.

Police are also expected to teach acceptable codes of conduct. Many police representatives go around to schools teaching of the dangers of drugs and gangs. True, their focus tends to be more on the legal side of the issues, as it should be. But there is still the acceptable mode of conduct which the children must learn. And once again, how can a child reconcile being told by police and teachers that drugs are bad, and then go home to parents who regularly use some form of drugs for recreation?

And where do we draw the line? If my code of morality differs significantly from society as a whole, how far can I be permitted to go in teaching my children this code? How far can I go to enforce this morality with my children? Recently there was a case in Canada involving a teen-aged girl who refused to wear the burka, or hajib, at school. She was killed by her father for this refusal. Admittedly, Islam does not condone the death of this girl for this particular "crime" but it does apparently permit the father to beat her for her disobedience, an act which many people in this country consider far more repugnant than the girl's refusal to obey her father's wishes.

Did this girl commit an immoral act? By her father's standards, and the standards of his religion, yes, she did. By the standards of their adopted country, absolutely not! Again, where does one draw the line?

We cannot rely solely on the parents to teach morality, not if we wish the children to become integrated into society. It has to be taught by everyone, whether through active teaching or simply by example. We must all bear the burden of this training, because we must all bear the burden of our failure.

But would you agree that the Parent is the Primary person to teach it is what I mean, I realize kids learn from everywhere but I feel it is Primaril;y the Parents job to teahc and set direction for kids as they continue to learn and grow

[Thorne]

But would you agree that the Parent is the Primary person to teach it is what I mean, I realize kids learn from everywhere but I feel it is Primaril;y the Parents job to teahc and set direction for kids as they continue to learn and grow

I would agree that the parents are the most likely teachers. The kids tend to spend more time with their parents, especially at the earlier, more formative ages, than with anyone else. And I will agree that the parents SHOULD have the primary responsibility. But, as the kids grow older and become more involved in the world, there is more contact with others besides the parents, including teachers and others in authority.

And how many parents ignore their responsibility, or teach things which society would consider wrong? I have personally encountered cases where parents used their children to shoplift from stores, and I have heard of other similar cases. Now, perhaps the parents consider this moral, from their point of view, but society does not. Who's right?

[Warbaby1943]

I would agree that the parents are the most likely teachers. The kids tend to spend more time with their parents, especially at the earlier, more formative ages, than with anyone else. And I will agree that the parents SHOULD have the primary responsibility. But, as the kids grow older and become more involved in the world, there is more contact with others besides the parents, including teachers and others in authority.

And how many parents ignore their responsibility, or teach things which society would consider wrong? I have personally encountered cases where parents used their children to shoplift from stores, and I have heard of other similar cases. Now, perhaps the parents consider this moral, from their point of view, but society does not. Who's right?

Society isn't always right but in this case I'd say they were right on if they considered shoplifting wrong.

[Thorne]

Society isn't always right but in this case I'd say they were right on if they considered shoplifting wrong.

Society is the 500 pound gorilla: it may not always be right but it usually gets its way!

[Moonraker]

Morality is a very slippery concept, one which changes over time and distance. What one person considers to be immoral, another will consider perfectly acceptable. Those in this community must certainly be hyper-aware of that.

If you walk through a shopping mall in this country, I would venture to guess that upwards of 75% of the female shoppers you see will be wearing pants, whether jeans or slacks. A hundred years ago it would have been considered immoral and, in some places, illegal, for a woman to wear man's clothing. Even today, in some areas of the world, it would be a crime carrying severe penalties.

I would say there are some fundamentals in morality which are universally accepted so there should be no problem on that score. And even if not, there are principles on which morality is based so that is a good foundation to learn about.

To interpret the word "teaching" as meaning telling you what to do or think is incorrect. The is another thread about teaching the Bible where I commented that learning about something and being told it is right is another matter. I learned about facism, that doesn't been I was taught to be a neo-nazi. Children can be informed and come to their own conclusions based on facts.

To take the women in pants example I would say that 100% of schoolchildren were born in the women in pants era. If the education is valid for the world in which they live, that's close enough. Although following on from my previous point I would teach them that dress is an aspect of morality and look at various examples throughout history and today, including the veil. Discussion can include topics like why can a man go bare chested and not a woman. Who knows that may changes in the future (and before too long I pray..hehe). And knowing about the dress code of others (eg the veil) and to respect it may make the world a bit more tolerant. How many times in the west do you see cartoons poking fun at the veil? But you never see a cartoon about the woman wearing a veil at a funeral!

[Moonraker]

I would define Morals, a personal conduct, habits, ect like not only being polite but teacging children the dangers of Drugs, Unprotected Sex, aswell as other things parent feel they feel their kids need ot know as they gorw and learn Morals to me is a whole sum of how the persons, asks, behaves, how they treat ofthe,r what type of activities the ingage in, ie: sports, debate clases, drug or no drug use, having sex ect ect it encompases on they learn to live their lives ans how treat and act around others

Offhand I cannot think of a good word to encompass everything, but for now I will settle for "citizenship". All the things that children need to know to prepare them to be good citizens and good includes being good to themselves (eg drugs) and those they come into contact with (eg families).

Most of teaching and morality focuses on thing you should not do. But I would like kids to know about what you can do. To take drugs as an example it's not enough to simply say don't do drugs, offer an alternative way to have fun or overcome problems.

And there is another aspect of citizenship that disturbs me. All too often people are not aware of there rights. Governments are all to keen to tell you what you cannot do (eg laws) but don't seem so energetic about telling you your rights or assistance you are entitled to under law. Let's even the playing field a bit.