Any other atheists here? Some frustration

[fetishdj]

There is an argument that humanity, as a species, could not have risen so far without religion. The reason being that it is our initial tendancy to look at things and make patterns out of them which gives us both religion and science. Without that tendancy we have neither. Religion could be argued to be the initial attempts by humanity to explain how the universe works (a pattern is noticed and cannot be explained it is therefore attributed to cosmic forces and eventually attirbuted to a god). As the ability to observe and rationalise improves with time (and the ability to record information in books, something which was driven ironically enough by religion, and later other media helps with this because it means that each successive generation can call on the knowledge of all previous generations) we learn to apply a rational explanation to a greater range of phenomena and therefore remove the need for a mystical explanation.

Its sort of the backwards interpolation of Clark's law - sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. For primative man, everything was a mystery - the stars, gravity, fire, climate, weather - and so everything needed to be explained by a god. As we learnt more, as we ate the apple of the tree of knowledge and so lost our innocent naivity, we learn that there are more and more things that god is not a part of.

[Thorne]

... the ability to record information in books, something which was driven ironically enough by religion...

I think this was probably driven more by economics than by religion. The necessity of recording transactions, keeping track of the flow of goods and money, and especially taxation, required writing and long term storage of information.

True, religion also promoted literacy, but mostly among the religious and the ruling classes, not among the peasantry. At least not until much later, after the advent of the printing press.

This is a simplification, of course. Throughout much of history, and much of the world, religion and government frequently went hand in hand, sometimes to the point of being indistinguishable.

[Shwenn]

I'm an atheist. I'm a militant atheist. I am, as I think you are, an anti-theist.

And I agree that we should abandon our reverence for tolerance. I think intolerance is quite called for on this very topic.

The religious come into our homes, they try to desicrate that which we hold sacred. And, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

As long as those dimwits keep trying to get ID taught as science, I will say, in as many ways I can think of, that their ridiculous mythology is a work of fiction.

You want to use that one book to dictate who can and can not get married but you don't think you should have to defend the veracity of that tome of unbelievable bullshit? I don't think so. Not while I live and breathe.

[Virulent]

Not while I live and breathe.

Thanks for the segue!

Here's an idea: religion is a red herring. It is used by the consensus of elites who control this world's cultures to keep people angry, or better yet placid.

Theism and anti-theism are at best philosophical positions. Our world has been carelessly overpopulated to a degree vastly beyond the carrying capacity of the planet. There is no sustainable model for this population. Billions will inevitably die; the longer we put it off, the more we damage the environment, reducing the carrying capacity of the planet.

Not sure what I mean? Here's an example... think about how you (or your children, or grand-children, etc...) are going to keep warm in the winter after the shit hits the fan. Burn wood? How much wood is there in your local area? Will it warm everyone who lives in your local area for even one winter? What about food? Do you know what the last sustainable peoples in your area ate (the last sustainable age was the Stone Age; for Americans that would be the Native Americans)? Where I live the Shawnee ate deer, buffalo, berries, and corn. I can assure you that there is very little of the first three still available in the Ohio River Valley. Anyone who survives the collapse around here better fucking love corn.

The fun part is in thinking about how the 5 billion unsustainable inhabitants of this world are going to go; through voluntary population reductions, or involuntary ones.

In a little while, no one will care whether you believed in a god or not; they'll be more interested in the fact that they can't find any potable water.

Fun fact: it takes 3 to 5 liters of water to produce 1 liter of bottled water, and 250 grams of CO2 is pumped into the atmosphere to make the bottle, fill it, and transport it to you.

[Shwenn]

Here's an idea: religion is a red herring. It is used by the consensus of elites who control this world's cultures to keep people angry, or better yet placid.

Dan Dennett compares religion to one of those organisms that hijacks it's host, causing it to act in opposition to its own safety in order to further the life cycle of the organism. Like the fluke that causes the ant to climb to the top of a blade of grass, increasing the liklihood of it being eaten by a cow or a sheep.

[Thorne]

Its sort of the backwards interpolation of Clark's law - sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. For primative man, everything was a mystery - the stars, gravity, fire, climate, weather - and so everything needed to be explained by a god. As we learnt more, as we ate the apple of the tree of knowledge and so lost our innocent naivity, we learn that there are more and more things that god is not a part of.

Good points, dj. It's long been my contention that, as man's quest for knowledge has progressed, his need for the supernatural explanations of our ancestors has diminished. It is now primarily through religion that these superstitions are perpetuated, and while they still have some grip upon man's psyche, they are gradually losing there hold. And one of the few advantages of political correctness is that it's no longer fashionable (in this country, at least) to persecute those who don't believe the way the churches tell them to.