american empire

[Carpe Coma]

I wish I could say you're wrong, but the more I see of "average" people the more saddened I am by their general lack of education and intelligence. And I'm talking about college students here, not just people on the street. The American education system has failed the American people, badly. The handwriting is on the wall, but the "average" American can no longer read it!

Hah! I wasn't meaning the average individual intelligence, just the ratio of an individual's capacity of understanding to everything that is understood. Since that ratio is very very small, even amongst the brightest, the average person's knowledge on any random subject is going to be abysmal. Combine that with group psychology, and you see why large groups tend to make awful decisions. The few people who do know about that particular subject get drowned out by the vast seas of those who don't. That said, there is a lot that could be done to raise the average person's awareness and ability to think critically about common issues.

I think the modern equivalent of the Visigoths are speaking Spanish these days.

Eh. The U.S. has always been a country of immigrants with a regularly shifting face. This isn't the first time there has been an immigration backlash and it probably won't be the last. The same doom and gloom predictions that are circling now were circling then.

[Thorne]

The U.S. has always been a country of immigrants with a regularly shifting face. This isn't the first time there has been an immigration backlash and it probably won't be the last. The same doom and gloom predictions that are circling now were circling then.

True, we are a nation of immigrants. I'm only third or fourth generation myself, and proud of it. And I don't have a problem with immigration in general, provided it's done legally. My problem is with those, most notably from Central America it seems, who cross the border illegally, get falsified social security cards and other forms of ID, apply for welfare or medical aid or whatever else they can get their hands on, then protest how unfair the US is. And they expect the American people to welcome them with open arms? They expect us to make it easy for them to use their own language?

My great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, even one grandfather, came to this country from eastern Europe legally. They immediately set about integrating into the American culture, while still maintaining many aspects of their own. They learned to communicate in English without losing their native language. And they became American citizens as soon as they could, proud of their adopted country.

That's they way this country was built, and that's how I think it should continue. But now we are being inundated with illegal immigrants and our politicians won't do anything to stem the tide. In fact, they try to make it legal for these criminals to vote, just so they can be reelected! Shame!

[Carpe Coma]

True, we are a nation of immigrants. I'm only third or fourth generation myself, and proud of it. And I don't have a problem with immigration in general, provided it's done legally. My problem is with those, most notably from Central America it seems, who cross the border illegally, get falsified social security cards and other forms of ID, apply for welfare or medical aid or whatever else they can get their hands on, then protest how unfair the US is. And they expect the American people to welcome them with open arms? They expect us to make it easy for them to use their own language?

The vast majority of people that cross the border illegally don't do it to mooch off of the social systems. People that unmotivated tend to not to bother leaving the comfort of their own home.

My great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents, even one grandfather, came to this country from eastern Europe legally. They immediately set about integrating into the American culture, while still maintaining many aspects of their own. They learned to communicate in English without losing their native language. And they became American citizens as soon as they could, proud of their adopted country.

And many others from immigration heavy periods didn't, at least not at first. Due to the natural development of ethnic pockets, it was possible for quite a few immigrants to only have to learn a smattering of English, if any at all.

That's they way this country was built, and that's how I think it should continue. But now we are being inundated with illegal immigrants and our politicians won't do anything to stem the tide. In fact, they try to make it legal for these criminals to vote, just so they can be reelected! Shame!

Yes, the politicians trying to give illegal immigrants the right to vote is purely a self-serving measure. We are inundated with illegals because the legal requirements are extremely restrictive and there is a very strong desire to immigrate. The desire is strong enough that there are immigration problems throughout central America as people push north. However, short of possibly shooting them on sight, it isn't going to be possible to stem the tide as a lot of them feel they have little, if anything, to lose.

The best solution is probably going to be one that no one likes. Personally, I think we should have a "yellow card" or second class immigration to go with the standard immigration along with a "touch home" policy like there is in Florida. Immigrants would be freely admitted as second class if they were in good standing with their country of origin (No significant debts, outstanding warrants, felony convictions, etc). In exchange for this easier entry policy, they would be required to attend and progress in ESL classes (unless they can demonstrate a certain level of English proficiency), have restricted access to social services until naturalized, and a somewhat longer naturalization time. Felony convictions or failing to progress in the naturalization process leads to a quick trip back across the border and revocation of their eligibility.

The benefit to this is that it gets everything above the radar (which means taxes get paid, licenses get issued, etc), and finds a less disruptive way to channel the issue.

[Thorne]

The vast majority of people that cross the border illegally don't do it to mooch off of the social systems. People that unmotivated tend to not to bother leaving the comfort of their own home.

Unless they're forced out, which seems to be happening in some of the Central American countries. Rather than deal with their criminal elements, they make it easier for them to move north and become our problem.

However, short of possibly shooting them on sight, it isn't going to be possible to stem the tide as a lot of them feel they have little, if anything, to lose.

I wouldn't advocate shooting on sight, that's for sure. But if we started billing the Mexican government for every illegal we have to send back across the border, pretty soon the Mexican government will start keeping them out. It will be cheaper for them to educate and find jobs for them than it would be to pay the US for sending them back.

Personally, I think we should have a "yellow card" or second class immigration to go with the standard immigration ...

Actually, I think I like the sound of that. As long as they can find work and keep within the law, pay taxes and at least make an effort to become naturalized citizens, I have no problem with it.

[leo9]

Hah! I wasn't meaning the average individual intelligence, just the ratio of an individual's capacity of understanding to everything that is understood. Since that ratio is very very small, even amongst the brightest, the average person's knowledge on any random subject is going to be abysmal.

And in sane societies, the recognition of this long-standing fact leads people to consult experts. In insane societies, it's an article of faith that everyone's opinion is as good as the next, and anyone who claims to know better just because he's studied the subject for years and done all the research is "elitist".

That said, there is a lot that could be done to raise the average person's awareness and ability to think critically about common issues.

A few schools teach critical thinking. They're always private and marginalised, because the state and business want schools to teach uncritical acceptance of what you're told.

This isn't the first time there has been an immigration backlash and it probably won't be the last. The same doom and gloom predictions that are circling now were circling then.

Too true. The panic that the US would be taken over by the Irish lasted well into the 20th century, and had its last echoes in worries over Kennedy's Catholicism. Before that, both the English and Americans were afraid we would be overrun by the Chinese. And now I've had apparently sane Americans tell me quite seriously that France has been taken over by Muslims (presumably to explain why the cheese-eaters wouldn't join the Willing) and England is about to go the same way. So it goes on.