The Pope on HBT: "a threat to the future of mankind"

[SadisticNature]

I've never really understood how so many nice people can belong to such a ridiculous organization.

The Catholic Church is an organization that continues to exist in almost every country in the world despite it's role in the sexual abuse of minors and its openly declared support for other human rights violations. I don't really understand how any organization that contributes to the sexual abuse of minors can take issue with the morality of legal sexual practices between consenting adults. I think it is a failure of humanity that people actually take their positions seriously.

Furthermore, the office of the pope has not been held by a person without ties to Fascism and Nazism in Germany in the post-war period. In some instances those ties can be taken as errors of youth an Jon Paul II was a fairly liberal pope who was responsible for modernizing the church in a lot of ways and likely not someone one would identify as a Fascist, this is still a disturbing trend. It becomes increasingly clear the church is associated with power and influence. Lacking the successful conversions of the missionary period, they have aggressively rallied against Birth Control of any form in the hopes of rising birthrates among the Catholic populace, hoping to increase influence by controlling a larger portion of the vote in democratic nations. It's disguised in language about "god's will" but I have yet to hear a good answer to why an all-powerful, all-knowing being is defeated by a thin layer of plastic.

[IAN 2411]

I've never really understood how so many nice people can belong to such a ridiculous organization.

The Catholic Church is an organization that continues to exist in almost every country in the world despite it's role in the sexual abuse of minors and its openly declared support for other human rights violations. I don't really understand how any organization that contributes to the sexual abuse of minors can take issue with the morality of legal sexual practices between consenting adults. I think it is a failure of humanity that people actually take their positions seriously.

Furthermore, the office of the pope has not been held by a person without ties to Fascism and Nazism in Germany in the post-war period. In some instances those ties can be taken as errors of youth an Jon Paul II was a fairly liberal pope who was responsible for modernizing the church in a lot of ways and likely not someone one would identify as a Fascist, this is still a disturbing trend. It becomes increasingly clear the church is associated with power and influence. Lacking the successful conversions of the missionary period, they have aggressively rallied against Birth Control of any form in the hopes of rising birthrates among the Catholic populace, hoping to increase influence by controlling a larger portion of the vote in democratic nations. It's disguised in language about "god's will" but I have yet to hear a good answer to why an all-powerful, all-knowing being is defeated by a thin layer of plastic.

This is something i have always thought but dared say in public, but i dont think you can single out Rome and its religion. The Christian church over all has had its fair share of trouble, child abuse, sex scandles. I believe however that it is just the odd blip, but because it is the church, then the press make a meal out of it, it always looks a lot more prevelent than it actually is. I do agree however with SadisticNature that one sixth of the worlds poulation follow a lot of laws made by men that have probably never been with a woman in their life. So therefore you have to ask yourself, what do these preists know about birth, life and and any other subject in married life. Popes notoriously have skeletons in their cupboards and this one was no diferent, i believe he was Brown Shirt scum. Why is it always the bad guys that turn to deep religion, it will make no diference, if you are a monster in life then you are a monster in death. I was Christened Church of England, but at a few weeks old you have no choice, i am not a practicing Christian but i belive in all the Gods new and old, and i dont need an old fart in Rome to tell me how to go about it.

Regards ian

[SadisticNature]

My problem with the Catholic Church is not that there were a few bad apples who molested children. It's that these bad apples were not treated as problems but instead whisked away from problems and put into positions where they could carry out the same problems.

What kind of rational human puts an accused Child Molester in charge of a school?

It's also not just one scandal. There is a long history of the Church carrying out all sorts of atrocities one after the other.

Here is a woefully incomplete list:

Protection of Child Molesters
Support of Fascists, Dictators and Despots.
Support and Encouragement of Holy Wars
Aggressive Repression of the Truth (Scientific or Otherwise)
Aggressive Repression of Human Rights outside those decreed in the bible.

[MMI]

My problem with the Catholic Church is not that there were a few bad apples who molested children. It's that these bad apples were not treated as problems but instead whisked away from problems and put into positions where they could carry out the same problems.

What kind of rational human puts an accused Child Molester in charge of a school?

It's also not just one scandal. There is a long history of the Church carrying out all sorts of atrocities one after the other.

Here is a woefully incomplete list:

Protection of Child Molesters
Support of Fascists, Dictators and Despots.
Support and Encouragement of Holy Wars
Aggressive Repression of the Truth (Scientific or Otherwise)
Aggressive Repression of Human Rights outside those decreed in the bible.

For which items in that list is it impossible to draw parallels involving Kings or Presidents, politicians or teachers, bankers or industrialists, rabbis or mullahs?

[SadisticNature]

My dislike of organized religion is not exclusive to the catholic church, I'll concede the points about rabbi's and mullah's unopposed. I also have a strong aversion to actual monarchies (as opposed to figurehead monarchies which I tolerate for historical reasons).

Regarding teachers, I'm not aware of incidents where teachers were whisked across the country to another school in order to be protected from a child abuse scandal. My problem isn't that a few bad apples were causing problems, its that the organization worked to hide and protect those bad apples and put them in other situations where they would be able to re-offend easily.

Regarding Presidents and Politicians, I again feel its a few bad apples and that in general they aren't protected. There are problems with presidential pardons for individuals associated with that administration which creates some unfortunate loopholes, but I don't feel the system as a whole is set up to support and encourage corruption and criminal activity. Regime change is easy to instigate in a democracy, if you're dissatisfied vote the bums out.

[Bren122]

Organised religion in the West was also responsible for campaigning for the end of slavery; prison reform and the ending of transportation; Catholic and Jewish emancipation; reform of lunatic asylums and poor houses; campaigned for Universal Suffrage; largely responsible for modern Parliaments and the separation of powers.

Organised religions are active in overseas aid with emergency food aid, long term development aid and schools and hospitals. In fact it is the secular aid agencies who have the more damaging ideological agenda in Africa where they stress traditional farming and lifestyles.

It was Catholicism that preserved intellectual endeavours through the Dark Ages; it was Catholicism that fueled the Renaissance and Baroque; Catholicism that founded the first Universities; Catholicism that preserved Europe from the Muslims at Vienna, Malta, Lepanto and Tours.

Organised religions increasingly do reflect the needs and desires of its faithful- it's just that the faithful no longer reside in the West. Can't very well drop out and then wonder why it no longer reflects your values.

[SadisticNature]

For the most part its individual members of organizations, or smaller parts thereof that are responsible for this while the larger organization is adverse to all change. Take for instance individual monasteries sheltering jews during the holocaust while the catholic church cut a deal with the regime to allow catholic schools to continue in Germany.

Likewise, while the church as an organization opposed much of intellectual reform, as evidenced by frequent persecutions perhaps the most famous of which is Galileo but in fact he's just the tip of the iceberg.

The early universities in Europe are in fact predated by similar "academies" in China which are less influenced by religion. Likewise, one has Greek academies which have comparisons to the modern university, but which were sacked during or before Muslim invasions. Furthermore, such universities were often founded by individual monastic efforts, rather than say by papal decree or the larger organization.

Many of the problems you mention that "organized religion" campaigned to end were caused by organized religion.

Also, regarding slavery you'll have to cite the nations, because in the US for instance this was not the case. While many of the prominent anti-slavery figures are men of religion, what religious organization at the time and as a whole issued a proclamation against slavery in the US (a proclamation against slavery in Europe or Worldwide at this point was rather status quo, the US being one of the last of elite nations to have slavery at all).

Some secular organizations are problematic with overseas aid due to misguided values, but so are some religious organizations. For instance, several countries have banned all foreign aid workers because of religious aid organizations who have brought in people who hand out bibles against the express wishes of that country. Furthermore, religion has been organized and providing aid far longer than secular organizations, so it seems disingenuous to blame secularism for the failures of Africa.

Also, Catholicism defined absolutely everything during the time period you discuss. It was involved in absolutely everything and historians often debate whether it was ultimately responsible for advancing or hindering various good or bad events.