Education... where is it these days?

[The Lord Winter]

No, when ANYTHING is forced it ceases to be consensual. This again is the crux of the fault with your thinking. Until you understand that, you will not come to understand how people can define the same words and ideas so very differently.

Oh? Perhaps that is how so many criminals get out of rape because of the confusion on the consent issue? I have to continue to disagree here.

Willing consent cannot exist without trust.

Don't believe me? Ask a virgin who got talked out of her pants on prom night when just a few hours before, she'd been adamant on maintaining that virginity as a gift for her groom on the first night of the honeymoon, and went on to regret that decision for the rest of her life because of a smooth talking young man. That is a fine example of coerced consent.

For an example of forced consent we need only look to cases of ransom. It takes consent of the account holder to remove funds from the bank, funds that would not be touched under normal circumstances. Yet the parents who find themselves in the situation give consent to not only withdraw the money, but hand it over to the kidnappers in that situation because no other option is available to them... thus it is forced.

No, trust is the most important aspect of any relationship, bar none. Love cannot exist without it, and nor can the concept of Willing Consent. When trust fails in a marriage, divorce soon follows. Ask a spouse who's been a victim of marital infidelity.

Do your homework on the terms, my friend. I'll be waiting patiently.

That is your definition and yours alone. It is not how I nor my slave define our relationship. Again, hence the reason your idea is faulted from the very beginning.

Seems like you haven't studied Gorean slave psychology very much. Gorean slaves are expected to exist solely for their master's pleasure. Their wants and needs are a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all. And there are slaves that absolutely THRIVE on this kind of treatment. Does it make my idea faulted just because it doesn't match up with yours when I put it out there, absolutely not. What it shows is that my definitions of submissive and slave are illustrations of the complete spectrum from a view of the opposing poles. Then we can fill in the gaps by identifying all the combinations that fall in between.

Since you opened the door by labeling my ideas as faulted, I believe I shall reciprocate in kind by labeling yours as short-sighted. That, in and of itself is a sad thing, when one considers that the responsibility of every Dom and Master is not to understand just their own sub or slave, but to understand the entire spectrum so that they may not only identify the needs of their charge, but help them grow beyond their preconceived notions and limits.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. We see things differently, and that's my point.

Seems that we have reached an accord on that point.

Like I said, some people want the wrap around.

Interesting that you would advocate safe practices, then turn around and defend unsafe practices in a follow-up response.

[_ID_]

Oh? Perhaps that is how so many criminals get out of rape because of the confusion on the consent issue? I have to continue to disagree here.

Willing consent cannot exist without trust.

Don't believe me? Ask a virgin who got talked out of her pants on prom night when just a few hours before, she'd been adamant on maintaining that virginity as a gift for her groom on the first night of the honeymoon, and went on to regret that decision for the rest of her life because of a smooth talking young man. That is a fine example of coerced consent.

For an example of forced consent we need only look to cases of ransom. It takes consent of the account holder to remove funds from the bank, funds that would not be touched under normal circumstances. Yet the parents who find themselves in the situation give consent to not only withdraw the money, but hand it over to the kidnappers in that situation because no other option is available to them... thus it is forced.

No, trust is the most important aspect of any relationship, bar none. Love cannot exist without it, and nor can the concept of Willing Consent. When trust fails in a marriage, divorce soon follows. Ask a spouse who's been a victim of marital infidelity.

Do your homework on the terms, my friend. I'll be waiting patiently.





Seems like you haven't studied Gorean slave psychology very much. Gorean slaves are expected to exist solely for their master's pleasure. Their wants and needs are a secondary consideration, if a consideration at all. And there are slaves that absolutely THRIVE on this kind of treatment. Does it make my idea faulted just because it doesn't match up with yours when I put it out there, absolutely not. What it shows is that my definitions of submissive and slave are illustrations of the complete spectrum from a view of the opposing poles. Then we can fill in the gaps by identifying all the combinations that fall in between.

Since you opened the door by labeling my ideas as faulted, I believe I shall reciprocate in kind by labeling yours as short-sighted. That, in and of itself is a sad thing, when one considers that the responsibility of every Dom and Master is not to understand just their own sub or slave, but to understand the entire spectrum so that they may not only identify the needs of their charge, but help them grow beyond their preconceived notions and limits.




Seems that we have reached an accord on that point.




Interesting that you would advocate safe practices, then turn around and defend unsafe practices in a follow-up response.

I am going to cease debating with you. Why? Because you refuse to see the fallacy of your proposal. I don't espouse that my ideas are the best, are the most correct. They are mine, and I subscribe to them because that's what I want.

On the point of preaching safety. I didn't. I said teach different methods and ideas. A wrap-around is risky sure, but some people want them. The point was that people have differing techniques, some of them very risky. Explaining the different methods, and letting the person decide for themselves what it is they want is the point. Being the SSC police is as wrong as being the definition police. I'm sorry you can't seem to grasp that concept.

On the notion of gorean slaves. It's a fantasy world that can't be subscribed to as the books are written. The removal of consensual relationships (as is written in the books) ceases to be a relationship. And as you pointed out, removes the trust that might have been.

Be well, and hopefully your mentor can teach you some of things I was unable to.