Lost Data

[steelish]

If the Big Bang was caused by some other uncreated instigator, it does not fit the usual understanding of a god, which, most of all, requires to be praised, lauded and worshipped. One would have thought that any Supreme Being worth His salt would know He was pretty damned good without having to be told.

God does not REQUIRE praise, laudation, or worship. People are the ones who believe that. My belief is that God requires each one of us to live as purely good as we can with our thoughts and actions towards our fellow man. God wants us to emulate his goodness as much as each of us are capable of doing. I do not believe we need to attend church and throw money in the coffers to be believers. God is all around us and within us. Some people simply choose to denounce him, rather than have a quiet and unabiding faith in him.

[Thorne]

God does not REQUIRE praise, laudation, or worship. People are the ones who believe that. My belief is that God requires each one of us to live as purely good as we can with our thoughts and actions towards our fellow man. God wants us to emulate his goodness as much as each of us are capable of doing. I do not believe we need to attend church and throw money in the coffers to be believers. God is all around us and within us. Some people simply choose to denounce him, rather than have a quiet and unabiding faith in him.

I must say that your version of God is much more tolerant than the traditional version. In fact, it's completely at odds with the biblical version of Yahweh/Jehovah. Throughout the Old Testament God smites those who fail to worship or praise him, and even some of those who do.

As for denouncing, I have no wish to do that to those who believe in gods of any kind. I will denounce those who try to force others, through legislation or threat of bodily harm or any other means, to abide by their beliefs.

[steelish]

Throughout the Old Testament God smites those who fail to worship or praise him, and even some of those who do.

No doubt. However, the bible was not written by God himself but by people.

I once had a debate with my father over God and faith. He is of the mind that ONLY Christians go to heaven. I argued that my belief is God does not turn away someone simply because they are ignorant of a specific faith. How can he condemn someone who is born as a Buddhist? Someone who only knows one way of life? However, I do believe that people intrinsically know right from wrong and/or evil from good and choose to live life one way or another.

Do I think God punishes a little boy for being born a Jihad and who has killed by the time he is 10? That is not something I know the answer to. Maybe he shows the child the truth of goodness and gives him a chance, maybe he doesn't. All I know is that only God can pass judgement, and based upon the 10 commandments and the knowledge that they are rules that are designed to keep us good and pure (as good and pure as a human can be), then I find it difficult to believe that God cannot see true goodness in the heart of one who stands before him in judgement.

As for denouncing, I have no wish to do that to those who believe in gods of any kind. I will denounce those who try to force others, through legislation or threat of bodily harm or any other means, to abide by their beliefs.

I also abhor those who knowingly do bad things and think that by "confessing their sins" they are completely cleansed and can go to heaven. I'm sorry, but I truly believe God can see right through that tactic.

[Thorne]

No doubt. However, the bible was not written by God himself but by people.

I agree, but again, our point of view is in marked contradiction to many who believe that the bible is the actual Word of God, and woe unto those who would disagree!

All I know is that only God can pass judgement, and based upon the 10 commandments and the knowledge that they are rules that are designed to keep us good and pure (as good and pure as a human can be), then I find it difficult to believe that God cannot see true goodness in the heart of one who stands before him in judgement.

But didn't we get the ten commandments from the bible? If so, then by your own words, they were written by men, and not by God.

The truth is that people can and do behave properly even without a belief in God or gods. It has been shown that morality is a survival mechanism for people, allowing large groups to live together more or less smoothly. There's no reason to believe that people are only good because of God. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that those areas of the US, at least, which are most religious also have higher crime rates than areas which are less religious.

I also abhor those who knowingly do bad things and think that by "confessing their sins" they are completely cleansed and can go to heaven. I'm sorry, but I truly believe God can see right through that tactic.

If there were an omniscient God then yes, I would expect he could see through that. But Yahweh, of the Bible, doesn't seem to care how his worshippers come to him, only that they do.

[MMI]

All I know is that only God can pass judgement, and based upon the 10 commandments and the knowledge that they are rules that are designed to keep us good and pure (as good and pure as a human can be), then I find it difficult to believe that God cannot see true goodness in the heart of one who stands before him in judgement.



I also abhor those who knowingly do bad things and think that by "confessing their sins" they are completely cleansed and can go to heaven. I'm sorry, but I truly believe God can see right through that tactic.

In passing judgement, God is passing judgement on Himself. If a man does evil, it's because God gave him the freedom to do so, but insufficient discrimination to avoid doing it.

[DuncanONeil]

No doubt. However, the bible was not written by God himself but by people.

I once had a debate with my father over God and faith. He is of the mind that ONLY Christians go to heaven. I argued that my belief is God does not turn away someone simply because they are ignorant of a specific faith. How can he condemn someone who is born as a Buddhist? Someone who only knows one way of life? However, I do believe that people intrinsically know right from wrong and/or evil from good and choose to live life one way or another.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, spent 13 years in a Catholic school. And I was taught that a faithful following of YOUR religion is sufficient for God's mercy.
In addition, at a time when it was common belief, that I could not enter another Church. As part of my religion class we were to go out in the community and interview priests and ministers of other faiths and report the interview to the rest of the class. The result, I can only speak for my understanding, was a revelation that in the basic tenets of all religions wer precisely the same.

[DuncanONeil]

I must say that your version of God is much more tolerant than the traditional version. In fact, it's completely at odds with the biblical version of Yahweh/Jehovah. Throughout the Old Testament God smites those who fail to worship or praise him, and even some of those who do.

As for denouncing, I have no wish to do that to those who believe in gods of any kind. I will denounce those who try to force others, through legislation or threat of bodily harm or any other means, to abide by their beliefs.

Were Yahweh were truly a venial God Abraham's son would not have survived!

[Thorne]

Were Yahweh were truly a venial God Abraham's son would not have survived!

I think you meant "venal", as in corrupt?

And if he were not venal, he wouldn't condemn a sinner's innocent children. (2 Samuel 12:13-18)

[DuncanONeil]

I think you meant "venal", as in corrupt?

And if he were not venal, he wouldn't condemn a sinner's innocent children. (2 Samuel 12:13-18)

Venial - venal, I never claim to be a typist. And being human I can make mistakes. But venial is most correct.

As for the reference. I read it. I have never been one to be very comfortable reading and using small parts of anything that is parsed as many verse quotes in the Bible. Anyway I also am not one that claims the Bible is word for word the only criteria, nor that God concerned himself with day to day operations of humanity. Kind goes against the concept of free will! I did have a number of concerns with the reference, too short, and divorced from the situation at hand. Reading more of Samuel raised additional concerns.

[Thorne]

Venial - venal, I never claim to be a typist. And being human I can make mistakes. But venial is most correct.

It wasn't my intention to correct your spelling or typing. I'm just trying to understand your meaning. By my dictionary, venial means, "Easily excused or forgiven; pardonable", which did not appear to apply to what I thought your were saying. Venal, meaning, "characterized by corruption" seemed more accurate. I'm sorry if I was wrong.

As for the reference. I read it. I have never been one to be very comfortable reading and using small parts of anything that is parsed as many verse quotes in the Bible.

I don't much care for it either, but this tactic is frequently used by those who wish to use the Bible to support their own positions.

Anyway I also am not one that claims the Bible is word for word the only criteria, nor that God concerned himself with day to day operations of humanity. Kind goes against the concept of free will! I did have a number of concerns with the reference, too short, and divorced from the situation at hand. Reading more of Samuel raised additional concerns.

Everything I was ever taught about the biblical God raised concerns for me. A God who is all good and all loving should not allow evil to exist, or allow innocents to be punished along with the guilty. A God who is all knowing contradicts the concept of free will, too. And if He knows something will happen, how can He become angry when it does?

No, everything I have learned tells me that, IF a god or gods created the universe, they did it for reasons we poor mortals cannot possibly comprehend, and believing that they did it just for us is a level of pride which would make one worthy of the biblical hell. As near as we can tell, our existence in this universe is the result of a nearly infinite series of cosmic accidents and random occurrences. One tiny change in that sequence eliminates humanity, as we know it, from the universe. And believe me, the universe would not miss us.

[DuncanONeil]

Quote:
As for the reference. I read it. I have never been one to be very comfortable reading and using small parts of anything that is parsed as many verse quotes in the Bible.

I don't much care for it either, but this tactic is frequently used by those who wish to use the Bible to support their own positions."

In my early teens a pair of Witnesses came to the door. Made a quote and presented the Book to show me. It was part of a sentence. Did not make much sense, read the whole sentence, did not make much sense either. Ended up reading the whole paragraph. At that point the mean was a bit clear but my understanding was the opposite of what they cited.
I began to discuss that with them but did not get very far.
Not for that reason. ----
My mom came to the front of the house and made me come in and shut the door!

[DuncanONeil]

God does not REQUIRE praise, laudation, or worship. People are the ones who believe that. My belief is that God requires each one of us to live as purely good as we can with our thoughts and actions towards our fellow man. God wants us to emulate his goodness as much as each of us are capable of doing. I do not believe we need to attend church and throw money in the coffers to be believers. God is all around us and within us. Some people simply choose to denounce him, rather than have a quiet and unabiding faith in him.

Should one be accepting of Jesus of Nazareth. There are two Great Commandments. All either of those requires is "love" and nothing else!