Equality?

[Kendal]

steelish - UK is somewhat different than america. You define class in terms of money whereas in UK it is much more. The man who wins the lottery in America becomes upper class overnight but in UK his education and behavior would be a barrier. My point is everybody who is working works hard - so the gripe I work hard is redundant since it applies to all taxpayers.

I appreciate there may be a group who are the perpetual unemployed - the scroungers - but they should not be confused with the decent man who lost his job through no fault of his own but rather because the inept politicians and greedy bankers screwed up the economy and made his company bankrupt.

[DuncanONeil]

steelish - UK is somewhat different than america. You define class in terms of money whereas in UK it is much more. The man who wins the lottery in America becomes upper class overnight but in UK his education and behavior would be a barrier. My point is everybody who is working works hard - so the gripe I work hard is redundant since it applies to all taxpayers.

I appreciate there may be a group who are the perpetual unemployed - the scroungers - but they should not be confused with the decent man who lost his job through no fault of his own but rather because the inept politicians and greedy bankers screwed up the economy and made his company bankrupt.

Interesting comment; "the gripe I work hard is redundant since it applies to all taxpayers." Makes your distinctions harder. Here in the US some 47% are not taxpayers!

[steelish]

steelish - UK is somewhat different than america. You define class in terms of money whereas in UK it is much more. The man who wins the lottery in America becomes upper class overnight but in UK his education and behavior would be a barrier. My point is everybody who is working works hard - so the gripe I work hard is redundant since it applies to all taxpayers.

I appreciate there may be a group who are the perpetual unemployed - the scroungers - but they should not be confused with the decent man who lost his job through no fault of his own but rather because the inept politicians and greedy bankers screwed up the economy and made his company bankrupt.

Oh no. In America as well, even should you win the lottery it doesn't automatically make you "upper class". Your original post implied economic classes (you were speaking of employment). Even those without degrees can climb the corporate ladder in the US. It is possible to work your way up the corporate chain within a company by learning from the "ground up". I do not have a college degree yet my previous job consisted of boardroom meetings and I had a second story corner office with a fridge, two computers (Mac and PC), blackberry, etc.

The scroungers are in no way confused with decent people who lose their jobs and are unemployment (at least, not by me)...or those who are on welfare because they simply CANNOT work due to disabilities.

The point is - there is no such thing as equality. Every program created to "enforce" equality has failed miserably. There are those reading this thread who will point fingers at me and yell "racist"...there are those who will point fingers and accuse me of having a cold heart. But...think about it. The American government in their divine wisdom created "equal opportunity" within the workplace. There were thousands upon thousands of businesses who were forced to hire unqualified personnel just to meet the "racial" quota. I've sat in boardrooms (at my previous job) where this was discussed. I've overheard management (at my current job) talking about it. I've seen evidence of it. I've heard an African American (a term I still find offensive) telling co-workers he was going to "sue" the company because he didn't get a job he was qualified for, only to have his co-workers point out his lack of qualification. His response; "I don't care. If I have to play the race card, I will". The result...he got the management position over a year ago and is running the office into the ground.

Since when is it "equal" to give someone an "edge" over another person based upon race? Isn't that racism in and of itself? The thought that someone who is not caucasian needs "help" to get a job seems racist to me. It's the same as saying they can't get a job based upon their own merit. I know someone will say, "But without equal opportunity, there are still corporations that will discriminate". The way to change that mentality is not through brute force (forcing them to hire someone they "discriminate" against) but through example. How can discrimination ever disappear if people are behaving so reprehensibly?

So now along comes Obama and he's going to "fundamentally" transform America. Into what? He's going to "spread the wealth". Where? Within America? To other countries? Why? To make things equal?

Those are the questions I wish mainstream media would ask him. Those are the questions that if he tackled them with honesty we could get an open discussion on the table and possibly not be so alarmed with every move he makes. Honesty is, after all, the best policy.

[DuncanONeil]

I have come to the conclusion that when people in this country argue about equality they are arguing from different understandings.

People in this country used to understand the result of hard work - success. That being said it is understandable that "equality" is equality of opportunity. The most vocal among us on the issue of equality are clearly favoring "equality" of result.

The first of those is much more efficient to the advancement of the entire society than the latter.

Oh no. In America as well, even should you win the lottery it doesn't automatically make you "upper class". Your original post implied economic classes (you were speaking of employment). Even those without degrees can climb the corporate ladder in the US. It is possible to work your way up the corporate chain within a company by learning from the "ground up". I do not have a college degree yet my previous job consisted of boardroom meetings and I had a second story corner office with a fridge, two computers (Mac and PC), blackberry, etc.

The scroungers are in no way confused with decent people who lose their jobs and are unemployment (at least, not by me)...or those who are on welfare because they simply CANNOT work due to disabilities.

The point is - there is no such thing as equality. Every program created to "enforce" equality has failed miserably. There are those reading this thread who will point fingers at me and yell "racist"...there are those who will point fingers and accuse me of having a cold heart. But...think about it. The American government in their divine wisdom created "equal opportunity" within the workplace. There were thousands upon thousands of businesses who were forced to hire unqualified personnel just to meet the "racial" quota. I've sat in boardrooms (at my previous job) where this was discussed. I've overheard management (at my current job) talking about it. I've seen evidence of it. I've heard an African American (a term I still find offensive) telling co-workers he was going to "sue" the company because he didn't get a job he was qualified for, only to have his co-workers point out his lack of qualification. His response; "I don't care. If I have to play the race card, I will". The result...he got the management position over a year ago and is running the office into the ground.

Since when is it "equal" to give someone an "edge" over another person based upon race? Isn't that racism in and of itself? The thought that someone who is not caucasian needs "help" to get a job seems racist to me. It's the same as saying they can't get a job based upon their own merit. I know someone will say, "But without equal opportunity, there are still corporations that will discriminate". The way to change that mentality is not through brute force (forcing them to hire someone they "discriminate" against) but through example. How can discrimination ever disappear if people are behaving so reprehensibly?

So now along comes Obama and he's going to "fundamentally" transform America. Into what? He's going to "spread the wealth". Where? Within America? To other countries? Why? To make things equal?

Those are the questions I wish mainstream media would ask him. Those are the questions that if he tackled them with honesty we could get an open discussion on the table and possibly not be so alarmed with every move he makes. Honesty is, after all, the best policy.

[steelish]

I have come to the conclusion that when people in this country argue about equality they are arguing from different understandings.

People in this country used to understand the result of hard work - success. That being said it is understandable that "equality" is equality of opportunity. The most vocal among us on the issue of equality are clearly favoring "equality" of result.

The first of those is much more efficient to the advancement of the entire society than the latter.

Equality of opportunity already exists in the US. Yes, there are some who still discriminate, but forcing understanding down their throats with regulations that cause them to view others with an even more discriminating eye will accomplish nothing. It's those who work hard, behave in a professional manner and don't behave as if the world "owes" them simply for being born a different ethnic background other than caucasian that will change the viewpoint of those who currently discriminate.

[DuncanONeil]

Equality of opportunity already exists in the US. Yes, there are some who still discriminate, but forcing understanding down their throats with regulations that cause them to view others with an even more discriminating eye will accomplish nothing. It's those who work hard, behave in a professional manner and don't behave as if the world "owes" them simply for being born a different ethnic background other than caucasian that will change the viewpoint of those who currently discriminate.

In order for the people of the group that my family hails to secure any kind of work they were required to accept wages at a rate lower than the Blacks.