U.s. Founding fathers

[Thorne]

My POINT was that the pledge places allegiance to the FLAG above allegiance to the Republic. I have no qualms about pledging allegiance to the Republic, but I don't feel I owe any allegiance to a symbol. It would be tantamount to pledging allegiance to one's avatar.

[steelish]

My POINT was that the pledge places allegiance to the FLAG above allegiance to the Republic. I have no qualms about pledging allegiance to the Republic, but I don't feel I owe any allegiance to a symbol. It would be tantamount to pledging allegiance to one's avatar.

Not necessarily. The flag is not placed ABOVE the Republic. The flag REPRESENTS the Republic. Besides, allegiance to one's avatar means allegiance to the person for which it stands. The symbol has to mean something, it has to stand for something. The flag is a symbol that stands in place of the Republic, a form of government. It gives people a visual reference...a reminder, if you will. I simply find it hard to equate it with an object that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. You're saying it's the same as pledging allegiance to a pair of dirty socks, or a basketball, or a used paint brush. That is ridiculous.

[Thorne]

Not necessarily. The flag is not placed ABOVE the Republic. The flag REPRESENTS the Republic.

No, the wording is clear: I pledge allegiance TO the flag... AND to the Republic for which it stands.

Besides, allegiance to one's avatar means allegiance to the person for which it stands. The symbol has to mean something, it has to stand for something.

I agree, but it does not have to mean the same things to different people. And the symbol itself is not interchangeable with the thing, or person, it represents.

The flag is a symbol that stands in place of the Republic, a form of government. It gives people a visual reference...a reminder, if you will. I simply find it hard to equate it with an object that has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.

I never claimed it had no meaning. I agree that it DOES have meaning. But that meaning can be different to different people. Even people who honor this country, and believe in this country, don't necessarily see the flag as meaning the same things. And I, for one, don't see the flag as being so connected to this nation that disrespecting the flag would mean an attack on the nation. That's just ludicrous. The flag, itself, is a piece of cloth. It can be purchased almost anywhere. What it represents cannot.

You're saying it's the same as pledging allegiance to a pair of dirty socks, or a basketball, or a used paint brush. That is ridiculous.

If those items have meaning for you, then they can have as much symbolism, for you, as the flag. What if those dirty socks were all you had left of someone who died saving your life? Would they mean something to you? Maybe the basketball belonged to a child that is no longer with you. Some symbolism there, too. (Okay, you might have me at the used paint brush.) But that doesn't mean that your neighbor has to have the same respect for those dirty socks, or that basketball. It does not mean that he should be forbidden from washing or discarding all dirty socks without due reverence. And it does not mean he must pledge allegiance to those items.

All I'm really saying, though, is that the WORDS of the Pledge of Allegiance are just words, they are not sacrosanct. There was not always a Pledge of Allegiance. The words have changed in the last 120 years, and will likely change again as political winds blow around this country.

I have no problem with pledging my allegiance to this country, and to the people of this nation. I do not feel we owe allegiance to the politicians who run the country, though as elected representatives we owe them a certain level of respect and obedience. I also feel that, as Americans, we owe a certain level of respect to our flag, because of the nation it symbolizes. I do not feel we owe allegiance to that flag, however.

[steelish]

All I'm really saying, though, is that the WORDS of the Pledge of Allegiance are just words, they are not sacrosanct. There was not always a Pledge of Allegiance. The words have changed in the last 120 years, and will likely change again as political winds blow around this country.

How amusing that the article you link to says the very thing I've been saying: "The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches."

[Thorne]

I don't deny that this is the REASON for the pledge. It's the words which I object to. It's the statement of pledging TO the flag, first and foremost, AND to the republic. I don't see any sense in pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, however symbolic that cloth might be.

And yes, we should specify that it is indivisible. If it is not, we end up with another Europe, divided states constantly at war with one another. I do object to the phrase, "Under God", though, which I'm sure will surprise no one. There was an ad campaign around here years ago, proclaiming that "Jesus is Lord in" this town. I objected to that, as well. I am a citizen of this town, of this nation, and I do not, and will not, accept any religious fantasy as ruler!

[DuncanONeil]

We treat our flag different than most (since I haven't been to them all) other countries in the world. Perhaps it is just because we have such a close link between our country and the flag that represents it.

I don't deny that this is the REASON for the pledge. It's the words which I object to. It's the statement of pledging TO the flag, first and foremost, AND to the republic. I don't see any sense in pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth, however symbolic that cloth might be.

And yes, we should specify that it is indivisible. If it is not, we end up with another Europe, divided states constantly at war with one another. I do object to the phrase, "Under God", though, which I'm sure will surprise no one. There was an ad campaign around here years ago, proclaiming that "Jesus is Lord in" this town. I objected to that, as well. I am a citizen of this town, of this nation, and I do not, and will not, accept any religious fantasy as ruler!

[DuncanONeil]

There was an ad campaign around here years ago, proclaiming that "Jesus is Lord in" this town. I objected to that, as well. I am a citizen of this town, of this nation, and I do not, and will not, accept any religious fantasy as ruler!

Hah! I knew there was a religion for you! http://www.thedailypage.com/isthmus/...rticleComments

[Thorne]

Sounds more like a community center. People want the social aspects of a church without all the superstition. And they're still looking for someone else to tell them how to be good. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's certainly not a religion. And it's not for me. I'll take a pass.