U.s. Founding fathers

[DuncanONeil]

I sure would like some kind of explanation for that. If you mean that churches have a right to be represented in the law, then I will agree with you.

Well this is a given!

But if you mean that religions have a right to force their moralities into the law then I must respectfully disagree!

No this is not what I meant. In fact this is what I infered led to the second course.

I can't bring myself to trust the morality of any group of people who proclaim their moral basis comes from an invisible being or an ancient collection of fireside stories.

Perhaps a better way to explain it is that without the codification of some religion way too many people would be little more than spoiled brats, well brats at least. People that are moral from their own compass are way to far and few between. Many of those "fireside stories" are expressions of humanities collective wisdom.

[Thorne]

People that are moral from their own compass are way to far and few between.

I disagree. It's only that those without a moral compass make the headlines more often. Most people are willing, and able, to maintain a moral center regarding their fellow human beings, even without religion.

Many of those "fireside stories" are expressions of humanities collective wisdom.

Only such wisdom which was collected before about 100AD (give or take), at least as regards the Bible. A few extra years for other books. But you have to realize, too, that much of that "collected wisdom" was taken from relatively small areas of the world, not from a collective humanity. It's more the collected stories of an individual culture, and a culture that is historically obsolete.

[DuncanONeil]

I disagree. It's only that those without a moral compass make the headlines more often. Most people are willing, and able, to maintain a moral center regarding their fellow human beings, even without religion.

Really no way for us to settle this!


Only such wisdom which was collected before about 100AD (give or take), at least as regards the Bible. A few extra years for other books. But you have to realize, too, that much of that "collected wisdom" was taken from relatively small areas of the world, not from a collective humanity. It's more the collected stories of an individual culture, and a culture that is historically obsolete.

Again more or less. But stories were carried from area to area over the trade routes. Everyone has a creation myth, and nearly everyone has a story of a catastrophic flood.

[Thorne]

But stories were carried from area to area over the trade routes. Everyone has a creation myth, and nearly everyone has a story of a catastrophic flood.

And all of those stories, while having some points in common, have far more differences than similarities. That's how you can tell that they have been "tainted" with the myths of other cultures. The stories of the Bible, for instance, were borrowed (to be polite) from the Babylonians, Egyptians and even the Far Eastern cultures. They were modified to fit the cultures of the Hebrew tribes. And then those cultures spread their myths and stories far and wide, too.

[DuncanONeil]

But that is the problem with a myth. That little kernel of truth!

And all of those stories, while having some points in common, have far more differences than similarities. That's how you can tell that they have been "tainted" with the myths of other cultures. The stories of the Bible, for instance, were borrowed (to be polite) from the Babylonians, Egyptians and even the Far Eastern cultures. They were modified to fit the cultures of the Hebrew tribes. And then those cultures spread their myths and stories far and wide, too.

[Thorne]

But that is the problem with a myth. That little kernel of truth!

You make an assumption that all myths do indeed have such a kernel of truth. I would say, instead, that they all have a kernel of perceived truth. What is perceived as truth today, may be proven as untrue tomorrow. It was a perceived truth that the Earth was the center of the universe. We now know that to be wrong. Should we, then, give equal weight to those myths which rely upon that one-time truth?

[DuncanONeil]

But you do agree with the kernel theory.

You make an assumption that all myths do indeed have such a kernel of truth. I would say, instead, that they all have a kernel of perceived truth. What is perceived as truth today, may be proven as untrue tomorrow. It was a perceived truth that the Earth was the center of the universe. We now know that to be wrong. Should we, then, give equal weight to those myths which rely upon that one-time truth?